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  #31  
Old Wednesday, May 02, 2007
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@fouzia
Dear you have provided a strange type of argument here. I feel it my duty to point out certain things in it that I think might be seen in another way as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fouzia
well, as far as'' western democracy'' is concerned,if some people think it is in contradiction to Islamic teachings.....then,well and good.It,s no loss for muslims....
why we should feel regret for such kind of democracy.......??
Nobody here is regretting it. We are just out to discuss whether it is in contradiction to western democracy or not.

Quote:
what has given such kind of government to western society....
Well, just a little ten to twenty times as much per capita income as us; ten times less child mortality rate; twenty year more life expectancy rate (Pakistan 62, Britain 80); universal literacy rate etc. This and much more democracy has given to them.
Quote:
people say we like such and such things and since there is prevailing ''great western democracy'',government has to act according to peoples demand.
At least it's better than the obnoxious revelries amidst creeping misery. Isn't it?
Quote:
so if majority of people is in favour of some thing,rulers can,t do anything.whether such things are good for public or not and their results are disastrous......that,s happening in such socities.since people are in favour of liquor,everyone knows it,s dangourous,but government and leaders should keep their mouth shut......
You are presupposing that people are stupid monsters while rulers (and they are not "people", accoding to this theory) are infallible angels. You are not mentioning any researches which say that liquor is more dangerous than say, smoking which is not prohibited even in an Islamic state. (I am not aware of any Islamic scholar other than Dr Ghulam Murtaza Malik who says smoking is "haram"). In Britain, however, and France-(democracies, remember) it has been banned.

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people like to go in nightclubs...etc and the results of such activities are dangerous and disastrous .Govt knows ,leaders knows ,but they can do nothing in such democratic socities.
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since people say they are not interested anymore in religion,govt can do nothing.....
I wonder who has told you these things about people and their rulers.

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and what their spiritual emptiness has made of them??
Yes what has it made of them????

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what kind of terrible bills are passed in such democracies because of sheer pressure of public , and govt representatives ,who are well aware of it that these things will one day destroy the society ..... are helpless
What kind of terrible bills? And who says their representatives are aware of the fact that these things will destroy the society one day.

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It,s much much better that supreme power should be ALLAH
Of course, you are right. But because of certain practical difficulties involved, it has to be practised by the people themselves.

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in islamic state,govt act and decide issues according to teachings of religion .......and not according to demand of people that can lead the whole country in a pit .Because ,common people would want the things seems to them so charming but only wise representative can decide according to teachings of ALLAH and HOLY PROPHET(pbuh)whether it,s good for them or not and whether its ultimate results would be good for public or not....
For a detailed answer, please see following comments:
Quote:
Again too much emphasis on the ruler. For a ruler to have such powers even in an Islamic State, he needs first of all to have a complete knowledge of all the nooks and corners of Islam law-and this is not a small thing- and of all the traditions and implications thereof. Then he needs almost a superhuman sense of not only what and how something is to be implemented in an Islamic State but also how to maintain that fragile "balance" as you said. But all these problems are nothing when compared to the last one: how is he going to become the ruler? Who after all is going to decide the most suitable person for this post? The Ulema or the people? If Ulema, then of which school of thought? Who is going to decide, to which school of thought that person will belong? If by a majority of Ulema, who is going to ensure the rights of the minorities?
If it's going to be decided by the people, then who is going to teach the people what qualities to seek in a person? You can't expect it from common people in an Islamic state. It will certainly be taught by the Ulema. But again, of which school of thought? And so on.......
Quote:
so fear of ALLAH is very necessary for keeping people on right track...
Agreed…..
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  #32  
Old Thursday, May 03, 2007
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Default A few clarifications...

@ second coming

I gave my comments in this thread only because if someone feel that western democracy is a great blessing and being muslims if we have an islamic state we can,t have it......
as far as my arguments and examples are concerned ,i have briefly discussed because of lack of time and at this moment again i can,t discuss
in much detail..
but i would like to comment on few things...
1) The benifits u have mentioned are not only and only the result of western democracy.who has told u?
In a true Islamic state people arenot kept deprived of these benefits...infact,it is responsibility of islamic state and rulers that people should avail themselves of these rights..
2) as far as your second argument is concerned,sorry, i,m not able to understand it..
3) Thirdly,i have not said that the rulers are infallible angels ....
but atleast they are the representitives and responsibility lies on their shoulder,personally whatever they are.....
so atleast they have to think what is right for public or not....but the pressure of public forces them.It,s a fact that common people are simple and innocent.they need right guidance by wise rulers....
4) I have not read anywhere that islam encourages smoking.Infact Islam discourages it because smoking is dangerous for health and Islam doesn,t encourage any such thing that is dangerous for health
as far as liquor is concerned,come on, everyone knows how dangerous it is.
even those countries where it is allowed are aware of this fact.....u can consult from dr Zakir naik lecture in this matter..
i,m really surprised those great democracies banned smoking but not liquor...
but it,s also very simple, public will kill their rullers if they ban liquor and i think,they would have banned smoking in public places.
5) Western society is so far from religion...ofcoures they donot come and tell me ...it,s obvious from the picture they present.... their great scholars of these days are a proof of it who are searching in this aspect that in which part of brain Ideas about God and religion lies so that they should be eliminated easily....
6) Which terrible bills, well, i only mentioned because i Thought others would understand..
well,the bills regarding free sex,homosexuality etc.....
surely the govt knows the disastrous result of these things...but if public demands and protests on roads ,what would the great democratic govt do???
7) I Think my brief comments on how Islamic state works are enough....
as far as your comments about ruler in an Islamic state and his election are concerned ,he should be a wise ,learned and pious person but how did u presume that he should have a superhuman kind of sense......???
he can take guidance from quran and teachings of holy prophet MUHAMMAD(pbuh).
I don,t think so that there is so much emphasis on the ruler.ruler can,t decide issues alone.he will have to consult from other selected representatives....
as far as this matter is concerned that how he should be selected and the problems mentioned by u arising from this matter...these shouldn,t seem big if handled properly......and if people really want an Islamic system.
ruler and the other representatives could be selected by mutual union and consent of people and the ulemas....as far as small disputes are concerned, even the representitives in western domocracy have small disputes on issues among them...

I think these comments will help in enlightening you....
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  #33  
Old Thursday, May 03, 2007
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@fouzia
At last we seem to be reaching somewhere.

I am not going to comment on your post until you have time enough to discuss my arguments in detail (as you said you havnt got time right now).

Just the second argument which you said you were unable to understand. It was in response to your comments:

Quote:
people say we like such and such things and since there is prevailing ''great western democracy'',government has to act according to peoples demand.
Your statement implied that governments in western democracies have to do a lot of wrong things just because their people want them to do so. My comment:
Quote:
At least it's better than the obnoxious revelries amidst creeping misery.
It means that western democracies are better than us in this sense because in them governments at least do not indulge in extravagant and odious activities when people are living in abject poverty, as it happens in our country.

Hope it's clear now.
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