Sunday, April 28, 2024
11:43 PM (GMT +5)

Go Back   CSS Forums > General > Discussion

Discussion Discuss current affairs and issues helpful in CSS only.

Reply Share Thread: Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook     Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter     Submit Thread to Google+ Google+    
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old Thursday, May 21, 2015
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 118
Thanks: 178
Thanked 41 Times in 29 Posts
Anila26 is on a distinguished road
Default From IBA graduate to terror suspect

My heart weeps reading this. Extremism is being ploted deep in young minds , the young generation and future of this nation is used for malocious purposes. It is dificult to digest the fact how come such an educated person be influnced. We are so far blaming madrisahs but what now? Every time I read the word terrorist in this article I felt like someone crushing my heart. Babar satar rightly said we need to curb this from the supply end.


KARACHI: The Sindh chief minister's thunderbolt revelation yesterday that three "well-educated" students have been arrested for plotting recent terrorist attacks in Karachi sent shockwaves across the country.

As Mr Qaim Ali Shah disclosed the names of university graduates Saad Aziz, Mohammad Azfar Ishrat and Haafiz Nasir for being involved in heinous crimes, friends and former schoolmates took to Facebook and Twitter to express both horror and disbelief.

Saad Aziz - the 'good kid'
That a student from one of Pakistan's finest and most prestigious business schools could become a "trained militant" who "provides funds for terror activities" in the city is difficult to understand for many.

The assertion that Saad Aziz - a BBA graduate from the reputable Institute of Business Administration (IBA) - has confessed to masterminding the murder of rights activist Sabeen Mahmud has been met with scepticism by former schoolmates.

“I remember him being a good kid. He played tennis and football. He had a good sense of humour," says one of Aziz's former schoolmates, requesting anonymity owing to the sensitivity of the case. He added that Aziz earlier studied at the Beaconhouse Schooling System, after which he went on to another elite institution, The Lyceum for his A' Levels and eventually IBA for his undergraduate degree.

Another former schoolmate describes him as "a calm and a composed person". "He used to hang out in the company of boys as well as girls," he adds.

A hardworking student at IBA
A former IBA schoolmate of Aziz scoffed at the idea that the boy would have had time for training as a terrorist, owing to IBA's rigorous schedule.

“The press release says he was involved in terrorist activities since 2009. He must have been 19 or 20 years old then and in his second year at IBA. I don't know whether being in a terrorist organisation is a full time job or not, but IBA didn't give time for us to be involved in anything. And he was there at university every day.”

Director Communication and Public Affairs at IBA, Huma Baqai also expresses alarm at the allegation.

"Saad Aziz from the batch of 2011 was our student, but it's been four years since he left. We won't deny that he was a student of IBA."

"During his time here he was a good student with good grades. Even before IBA, he was associated with a good school, where he had good grades. No such tendency towards [terrorist] activities came to light during his time at IBA," she continues.

"He was a good boy from a good family, a tax-paying family. It's as much a surprise to us as it is to you that someone from such a family could get lured into such activities."

'He grew religious over time'
One former IBA student, however, said Aziz may have grown religious over time.

“I know he had become religious, grown a beard and started going on those four-month religious evangelical trips. This is what I know through mutual friends. Maybe he got involved with such people during his religious trips. But he didn’t look the type of person who would be a mass murderer. We are all very shocked by this news.”

He added that no one has been able to contact Aziz' family.

"He was also out of touch with his university friends for a while now. Though he did bump into an IBA class fellow at the Karachi Literary Festival... "

According to a former schoolmate, Aziz is married and also has a child.

He worked at The Cactus, a restaurant in Karachi's Sindhi Muslim that serves a variety of Mexican and continental dishes. An employee at the restaurant told Dawn that the joint is nearly a year old and is owned by Aziz's father, with his son holding an administrative position in the business venture.

"Saad is not like that [militant] at all ...It is impossible. His character is not like that. He is a family man," an employee vouches.

KU, IBA students were friends
A highly placed source told Dawn that Aziz had become friends with the Karachi University student who was also named by the chief minister as a terrorist. Shah had said Haafiz Nasir alias Yasir, who completed MA in Islamic Studies from Karachi University is a trained terrorist, with expertise in brainwashing and motivating people for ‘Jihadi’ activities.

“The two met at a talk held by a religious preacher, “ he said, requesting anonymity as he was not authorised to speak on the matter. “The preacher is not known to incite religious violence, but some people do go too far and take the interpretation into their own hands.

Jameel Yusuf, former Citizens Police Liaison Committee (CPLC) chief, tells Dawn, “It is a sad fact that militants have penetrated the educated circle."

“Even in the kidnapping of Shahbaz Taseer in Lahore, the boys who came for him were highly educated. 9/11 attackers were engineers… so this is something we all must accept.”

Weighing in: Confessions by torture?
As sceptism grows over the assertions made by the chief minister, a security expert requesting that his name not be used for this story tells us there have been cases where men are falsely accused.

“Sometimes when the police is under pressure to solve these cases, they arrest people and torture them to confess. At times, they will pick up the wrong guy and say he is the culprit without even checking his alibi,” he says. He adds that this is a dangerous trend that allows the real killers to roam free.

“In this case, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) must do its job to ensure that they have arrested the criminals responsible for these acts. It must give the benefit if doubt to these suspects.”

He also says that while the chief minister’s disclosure may be based on sound evidence, it seems that too many crimes have been clubbed under one umbrella and pinned on these three men.

According to the chief minister, Saad Aziz alias Tin Tin alias John, is the mastermind of the attack on Sabeen Mahmud and has been a part of terrorist activities since 2009. "Aziz is a trained militant with expertise in producing different types of literature. He provided funds for terror activities in the city," the chief minister said.

While Shah did not disclose the organisation the arrested men belong to, CID Police Incharge, Raja Umar Khattab said it is a group inspired by Al Qaeda.

"It took 13 months to complete the investigations that lead us to this group," Khattab said, "They are all from the same group."

Given below are brief profiles of the other suspects arrested along with Saad Aziz:

Tahir Hussain
Tahir Hussain Minhas alias Sain Nazir alias Zahid, alias Naveed alias Khalil, alias Shaukat and alias Mota-matriculate, who is the mastermind of the Safoora Goth carnage, has been involved in terror activities since 1998. A trained terrorist who has expertise in making bombs and using arms such as RPG-7 and Kalashnikov.

He had personally met Osama Bin Ladin and Aiman-uz-Zawahiri of Al Qaeda on several occasions.

Azfar Ishrat
Mohammad Azfar Ishrat alias Maajid is an engineer having passed out from the Sir Syed University of Engineering and Technology. Involved in terrorist activities since 2011, Ishrat is a trained terrorist who has expertise in making bombs and electronic circuits used as timers in such bombs.

Haafiz Nasir
Haafiz Nasir alias Yasir, who completed MA in Islamic Studies from Karachi University, has been involved in terrorist activities since 2013. A trained terrorist, Nasir has expertise in brainwashing and motivating people for ‘Jihadi’ activities.

The confessions made by these terrorists include the carnage of Safoora Goth, murder of Sabeen Mahmud in Defence, firing on American educationist Debra Lobo in the Ferozabad area, bomb attack on a naval officer and suicidal attack on Brig Basit of the Rangers, grenade attack on schools and throwing pamphlets in Nazimabad and North Nazimabad, bomb blast and targeted killings on the Bohri community in the area of Arambagh, North Nazimabad, Bahadurbad Karachi and Hyderabad, bomb attacks on police vans on M.A. Jinnah Road, Arambagh, Gulberg, Gulistan-i-Jauhar, NIPA Chowrangi, North Nazimabad and North Krachi and in the targeted killing of police officials in Gulistan-i-Jauhar, North Nazimabad, North Karachi, Shah Faisal Colony and Landhi.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Anila26 For This Useful Post:
RAO RAMEEZ (Thursday, May 21, 2015)
  #2  
Old Thursday, May 21, 2015
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 138
Thanks: 4
Thanked 45 Times in 36 Posts
nelblueblue is on a distinguished road
Default

indeed an eye opener article...it is again a common perception in Pakistan as well as throughout the world that War on terror is correlated with poverty.
terrorist mind develops slowly and engulf a person completely,lost of thinking and desperation is compulsive at every stage... in such a person
So terrorist mind develops from%%% BACID%%%
I.e.
Belief:
Hard cone ideology ,that a respected person unquestionablly possess superiority complexes and this belief must be accepted biashfully by majority. But in prtical it doesn't happen.so he prefers the in grouping of such persons who support his idea.

ATTACHMENT:
strict attachment and develop a false premise that if somebody is not abiding ' he /she deserves no right to live.

COMMITMENT:
strive for every means whether it is legal or unjstified because of extreme orgy that is tornetting the terrorist minds.

INVOLVEMENT:
Engrossement of ones mind and even movents.Such a person losses the contact with reality. He consider blood shedding or massacer justified.Because its his orgy that is now turned into Extreme passion.

Devotion:
when mind is controlled and weapons are available than such person is ready to serve the purpose of source.
Question arisis if it operates in such principle than what is the role of religious fanatics...
The answer is not simple...
Selective perception,stereotypes ,propaganda and prejudices play the role under the sermise of religiosity.
For example take the case of surah infal""" commonly taught as part of islamyat syllabus.
Jihad literature is promoted ,selective interpretation provided ,prejudices like cast and sect superiority is dramatized and stereotypes displayed that our opponent is an enemy of whole world.If it is left unchecked it is travesty and very survival of our (terrorist ) resistance is questionable. Its jihad and religious OBLIGATION to exterminate all those people who are against terrorist ideology....


Than religious fanatics demarcate red boundry and ayats from Quran is quoted that if a terrorist commit suicide..He will rest in paradise eternally.

Interesting enough blood sampling of terrorist body has revealed that they also use some psychotrophic drugs as well.That literraly mouf their mind and drag a person to I Biblical ecstasy

...No more tension ,no anxiety and that terrorist is
fulfilling the most important purpose of his life.

It was first employed by Nazis during world war -ll and their principal was drawn under the camouflage of nationalism and mind control tactics...



Another question! is terrorism related with poverty....
The answer is categorical ***NO****
Recent evidences from Pakistan like Karachi,Balochistan and kpk has revealed that all terrorists belong to middle educated class.and that is even corroborated data from Iraq and Syrian terrorist.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to nelblueblue For This Useful Post:
Anila26 (Thursday, May 21, 2015)
  #3  
Old Thursday, May 21, 2015
RAO RAMEEZ's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Faisalabad.
Posts: 533
Thanks: 193
Thanked 343 Times in 244 Posts
RAO RAMEEZ is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nelblueblue View Post
Interesting enough blood sampling of terrorist body has revealed that they also use some psychotrophic drugs as well.That literraly mouf their mind and drag a person to I Biblical ecstasy

...No more tension ,no anxiety and that terrorist is
fulfilling the most important purpose of his life.

It was first employed by Nazis during world war -ll and their principal was drawn under the camouflage of nationalism and mind control tactics...
It was first employed by Hassan bin Sabah belonging to the Seveners (Ismaili Shia), to produce "Hassassins", now called "Assassins". How surprising a person mastered "Free masons" doesn't know how they employ and brain wash their "Assassins".

http://www.alamut.com/subj/ideologie...etymolAss.html

Rest of your analysis was ok.
__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Thursday, May 21, 2015
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 138
Thanks: 4
Thanked 45 Times in 36 Posts
nelblueblue is on a distinguished road
Default

Thanks for telling me the assassins ORIGINALITy ...There is little difference between your perception and mine.
At STATE level mind control tactics were employed by NAZIs and Ismilis hashish were archetype in originalities.
For this read Oliver stone untold story of world war -ll
So both points are correct.You explained assassins origin within the model of free masons and my point of view is that systematically mind control tactics were employed by communist nazis.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Thursday, May 21, 2015
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 118
Thanks: 178
Thanked 41 Times in 29 Posts
Anila26 is on a distinguished road
Default

@nelblueblue

Exactly, poverty has nothing to do with exremism and terrorism
Because now its understood that the underlying cause is not money off course, its about mind set its about mission and vision.
In my humble opinion and limited knowledge along with modern education we need to educate ourselves religiously too. Because preaching islam is now done in a wrong way and lack of guidance results in extremism. Most of the terrorist can be non-muslims but now cases like saad aziz are coming up which depict that as muslims we need to kniw our religion under proper guidance. Anxiety , depression are getting common now a days and that too in very young age, so when a depresed person looks for inner peace and consults religion , this is the point when they are miss guided. This is my own opinion because I cannot think of any other acceptable reason as to why a person would chose to blow himself and kills thousand others.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Friday, May 22, 2015
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 138
Thanks: 4
Thanked 45 Times in 36 Posts
nelblueblue is on a distinguished road
Default

@anila
winning tactics ,its beyond comprehension that such war fares are designed under despotism and psychological assertion ''' because perpetrators are cognizant of their utter failure.

Which sort of guidance are you talking about...
Crux of crisis is that Islam as a religion is hijacked by mullahs.Who will tell you zakat is farz or jihad is fight. if you dare to ask him what is the reason or logic behind zakat ,,,They will say NAuzbillah ,what are you asking about.
Only mullahs are not responsible the biggest trouble shoot is
ignorant parents and weak family association???


Parents will have to keep a strict vigilant eye on their child disregarding of theirs age,,,mutual discussion,and interaction must be promoted....At some point clash or difference of opinion is inevitable but rather than discouraging provide him/her with relevant material...
What I had seen parents started scolding it creates more negativity and misunderstanding..

As a Muslim

never rely on single source. For example take the hadith (Striving for education is religious education) confirm from multiple sources from internet to books and also from you tube...It broadens the vision and develop critical thinking

.
Than come surveillance ,being as a member of Muslim community its our religious obligation to keep in touch with colleages,class mates and neighbours...
actually when we are depressed or in stressed situation "anxiety is switched to orgy ,This attack is particularly 3 folds more active in drug abusers.
Unfortunately our 60% youth is a smoker.particularly more prevelant among man...
So if you have problem discuss with most reliable authority and according to me ,it would be your teacher or mom or baba or your friend...
No need to get hesitate...

Sharing reduces burden from mind.


Remember allopathic medicines contain sufficient amount of psychotrophic chemicals,so if a person is a regular user of such drugs" would have more prevelancy to odd behaviour.
Try to keep an eye on your brother and sister.
Like my mother has assigned me a duty to regularly check my bros bag...
I check by saying its getting dirty And as a sis its my responsibility to keep you clean...

Last but not least establish homes not houses as family bondages and mutual respect will never create such miscreants in the society.
unfortunately in Pakistani society there is wide gap between parents and children.Food provision and good schooling doesn't abate
parents responsibility.Its more than that!!!,
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Friday, May 22, 2015
iamauk's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Jacobabad, Pakistan
Posts: 137
Thanks: 28
Thanked 33 Times in 30 Posts
iamauk is on a distinguished road
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by nelblueblue View Post
....designed under despotism and psychological assertion.......
....check my bros bag...!!!,
Very nice analysis admirable. Yes, extremism is not more an outcome of poverty but other street crimes are motivated by poverty.
Indeed a poor person spends his day earning that he could give his extra time to Mullahs and listen their emotional speeches rhetorically full of sensationalism. But subtly poverty too paves way for extremism in some ways like Being poor one doesn't get involved in religious fanaticism but when injustice gets parallel to Poverty people feel frustrated and inferior against upper class people and finally the only alternative remains to hug their sentimental and revolutionist behavior and that is religion. So wrongfully or rightly they assume that Religion can get them back their rights and any single spark of any extremist Mullah has been enough to get them involved in extremism.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to iamauk For This Useful Post:
Anila26 (Saturday, May 23, 2015)
  #8  
Old Friday, May 22, 2015
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 138
Thanks: 4
Thanked 45 Times in 36 Posts
nelblueblue is on a distinguished road
Default

@ I am UK
I hope you are cognizant of this famous quote

"""Where IGNORANCE is bliss it is folly to be wise"""
There is difference between ignorance and illiteracy.Illiteracy is directly related with vicious circle of poverty.But ignorance is something misunderstood ,preoccupation of mind or unconditioned to reality.
There is reciprocity in terrorist mind set and superior complexes.Assessins,Proselytizer or self emulators are bashful about this notion, their (negative) precepts are based on ABSOLUTE TRuth..
regarding others as devil and thinking as rebellion mind set ,so must be exterminated...(its a terrorist mindset)
(Remember there is difference between absolute and real truth: Absolute truth is confined to Holy prophet (pbuh) and Almighty Allah....
And real truth is my analysis on the basis of logic or research or thesis...
(terrorist are challenging themselves as equivalent to prophet hood)
Contrary to poor psychological mind sets:
they suffer from INFERIORITY COMPLEXES...and such groups systematically are designed as XENOPHBIC and are ready to plunge into superstition or develop NARCISSISM(value their own judgements and customs and if confronted with antagonism are ready to castigate their own view within no times...
Economic imbalances promote FUTURE INSECURITY, malnurishment ,physiologically week body not mentally brain washed mujahideen...
(I mean there must be terrorism when stomach is empty and food is not available/ can you observe Terrorism in the month of Ramzan,because every Muslim from fajar to Maghrib is Hungary and is he/she proselytize the other???)
By the way its my personal observation...

Supportive arguments;
African continent contributes less than double digit income in world Gdp .Zimbabwe,Liberia, Rwanda and Democratic Republic of Congo are amongst the world most poor countries...
is there any information regarding sectarianism,Bomb blasting and organized terrorism in this region????
(you need money to purchase bomb and education to innovate terrorist tactics...)
Obviously there is famine and even some persons are canablist but not terrorist.

Where is the epicenter of terrorism???
It is middle east...it is the region where assessins are systematically recruited and trained...(Again recruitment and training needs money and also in dollars not RS and ryal.
I would like to tell you that even Syrian crisis is a terrorist hub but its Gdp is omning better than Pakistan???
2/3 Daesh militia is holding British,French ,German and Canadian passports...Are they POOR!!
Ironic enough all terrorists use infrared night visioned sophisticated cameras,ascertain the location of target through GPS(global positioning system)Frequently use WMDs (weapons of mass destruction) Propogate psychological warfare on internet throuht twitter accounts and websites.

(is an illiterate poor person even know what such terminologies mean than how can he use these???
Tell me a single case from practical life that a poor person is using such an expensive instruments extensively and also how to use?

what is the perception of poor about a laptop?
A strange box or small TV.Besides this he know nothing......
Pakistani terrorists are no more exceptional from this...it is our beloved land which is a coke studio of fanatics and assessins hub.
All terrorist belong to MIDDLE CLASS....by defination it is a class which is the backbone of progress ,prosperity and industrial progress.
Contrary to lower middle and other poor classes who are burden on economy and is also a liability to progress and prosperity.
Why ???

Because for them education is luxurious commodity and 24/7 they are preoccupied as from where to attain the next source of food.

Yes they will commit robbery ,stealth,nominal skirmishes or in worst crisis commit --- SELF MOLESTATION-
in western terminology they are called CREEPY CREEDs
among this creed you will never find Economic serpants ,money laundrer,terrorist,a puppet ruler or hard coined mullahs...
George Bush has coined that war on terrorism is war on poverty....
was he right decide by your own self????
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Friday, May 22, 2015
Mehria's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Lahore
Posts: 141
Thanks: 619
Thanked 77 Times in 59 Posts
Mehria is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nelblueblue View Post
@anila
winning tactics ,its beyond comprehension that such war fares are designed under despotism and psychological assertion ''' because perpetrators are cognizant of their utter failure.

Which sort of guidance are you talking about...
Crux of crisis is that Islam as a religion is hijacked by mullahs.Who will tell you zakat is farz or jihad is fight. if you dare to ask him what is the reason or logic behind zakat ,,,They will say NAuzbillah ,what are you asking about.
Only mullahs are not responsible the biggest trouble shoot is
ignorant parents and weak family association???


Parents will have to keep a strict vigilant eye on their child disregarding of theirs age,,,mutual discussion,and interaction must be promoted....At some point clash or difference of opinion is inevitable but rather than discouraging provide him/her with relevant material...
What I had seen parents started scolding it creates more negativity and misunderstanding..

As a Muslim

never rely on single source. For example take the hadith (Striving for education is religious education) confirm from multiple sources from internet to books and also from you tube...It broadens the vision and develop critical thinking

.
Than come surveillance ,being as a member of Muslim community its our religious obligation to keep in touch with colleages,class mates and neighbours...
actually when we are depressed or in stressed situation "anxiety is switched to orgy ,This attack is particularly 3 folds more active in drug abusers.
Unfortunately our 60% youth is a smoker.particularly more prevelant among man...
So if you have problem discuss with most reliable authority and according to me ,it would be your teacher or mom or baba or your friend...
No need to get hesitate...

Sharing reduces burden from mind.


Remember allopathic medicines contain sufficient amount of psychotrophic chemicals,so if a person is a regular user of such drugs" would have more prevelancy to odd behaviour.
Try to keep an eye on your brother and sister.
Like my mother has assigned me a duty to regularly check my bros bag...
I check by saying its getting dirty And as a sis its my responsibility to keep you clean...

Last but not least establish homes not houses as family bondages and mutual respect will never create such miscreants in the society.
unfortunately in Pakistani society there is wide gap between parents and children.Food provision and good schooling doesn't abate
parents responsibility.Its more than that!!!,
parents themselves might be the problem (sectarinism has deep roots),,,,,jis baap ky 10 bachay houn,,,,usey kiya pata kh koun kis madrassy mein saudi aid sy parh rha hy,,aksar parents,,lower class ky,,ya tu bachy 60 k(aaj kal ka rate,annual)gharoun mein kam krnay khliye beech daitay hein ya madrassy mein chore aatay hein
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Friday, May 22, 2015
alihashmatkhoso's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Karachi, now Lahore .
Posts: 773
Thanks: 431
Thanked 854 Times in 468 Posts
alihashmatkhoso has a spectacular aura aboutalihashmatkhoso has a spectacular aura aboutalihashmatkhoso has a spectacular aura about
Default

misinterpretation of islamic injunctions is root cause of such type of mishaps. so called scholars are responsible for this. furthermore no matter from where we are getting education, or at what stage of age, we are very sensitive pertaining to our religion. thus one can wash our brain. in addition to this deviance or lack of islamic teaching in educational institution is paving the way for so called mullas to paste their false teaching in one's mind. institution like IBA, or other prestigious institutions are following western pattern , no doubt it is need of hour but they must include islamic subjects in every deportment in every semsster to make the students strong enough to deal with so called scholers. stay blessed
__________________
LOVE all, TRUST a few, do WRONG to none......
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alihashmatkhoso For This Useful Post:
Anila26 (Friday, May 22, 2015), Mehria (Friday, May 22, 2015)
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Careers for Business Administration Graduate omarhanif Degree Programs and Courses 0 Thursday, April 26, 2012 11:54 AM


CSS Forum on Facebook Follow CSS Forum on Twitter

Disclaimer: All messages made available as part of this discussion group (including any bulletin boards and chat rooms) and any opinions, advice, statements or other information contained in any messages posted or transmitted by any third party are the responsibility of the author of that message and not of CSSForum.com.pk (unless CSSForum.com.pk is specifically identified as the author of the message). The fact that a particular message is posted on or transmitted using this web site does not mean that CSSForum has endorsed that message in any way or verified the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message. We encourage visitors to the forum to report any objectionable message in site feedback. This forum is not monitored 24/7.

Sponsors: ArgusVision   vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.