@hawx
Crux of Pakistan crisis is that ,Politicians are puppet rulers of west.Consult wiki leaks,From Zia to Nawaz,every democratic champ is fueled by west.Remember imf is a silent dynamite ,which is weakening our fundamental basics of economy.When it was revealed that intelligence agencies and police has arrested the terrorist of Saffoora,axact scandle was launched in,Here incompetency and ignorance of media is self evident.Tell me how much coverage our media is giving to drone strikes.What you (common people know about this letha technology)Balochistan which is ready to acquire another bangal model ,Have you know about this...Berziznski in 80s has already proposed it
in his book,
and no need to mention maps taught to CIA new recruitees.

,Still we are ignorant!

Altafs association with Raw was exposed by Hersh in 2010,(5 years have already wasted )tell me which sort of action is taken.

And what we know about these so called libertarian ' who are arranging presses in ISlamabad?During press politicians are either eating or sleeping or bombarding none sense on one another.
Nothing ,except ignorance!

u r quite right unfortunately this all is happening... meanwhile Interior minister issued a derogatory statement against india''s proxy wars and statement of manohar parikar which should be appraised by media..but not through press conference rather on augury of passing out parade of fc jawans ...it should be appriciated

So the sole default lies in our politicians then can any of you tell me that who choose those politicians ?
And you come to say : Democracy of, by & for the people...

First let me correct you that I am neither dictatorphilic nor anti antianthropologist.I mean I don't like dictatorship.
But ,But (I hope if wouldn't be a taboo)
Democracy is a BIG lie.My extensive research from east to west has lead me to draw this conclusion,Democracy of world is just a selection of hand picked bevy of incompetent one.I mean how is it possible that where there is democracy,there is Imf.Search out from internet ,ANY SINGLE COUNTRY in the world ,where democracy is flourishing.Please don't tell me the lesson of west and its libertarian few like Japan ,America and England.( need to know about here choosen few rather than elected few principle is employed,its like commoditys price determines the worth so is the institution and people)it itself is a long debate with a well documented proof that west democracy is oligoarchy.(its not my stance , analyst of west are saying this)

Come to Pakistan,tell me a single positive outcome of democracy,Zardari,Nawaz ,Bhutto,or ?.Its again a well documented proof that Zardari was a puppet ruler of west "memo scandle "is an eye opener!
Nawaz: My respected readers it is a person who is mortgaging Tarbelaand mangla dam ,selling off all assets at worthless price.
And interesting enough by using complex jargon Like fiscal deficit ,budget expense lowering tactics,extended loan facility ,Austerity measures.
They are staging us to further ignorance.
All these terms are nothing but economic dynamite.Mean silent economic Hiroshima.
Under austerity
you can get joblessness,poor allocation of budget to education ,health and shelter.
Than they will provide you free service of extended loan facility ,whose fundamental principle is to dictate the financial institution: Where to invest and how to invest and up to what extent to invest.
yes they will have no problem when Money is plundered on shoddy schemes like Metro or laptop.But seriously just increase the subsidy on fertilizers.Imf with all machinery is ready to kick you out of this globalized world.

Look they have another free service as well,I.e. NGOs like bill Gades foundation.
Can I explain you the inside story of this organization!
Have you witnessed measels outbreak in pakistan ?Even in America it has taken place,that's why we know.
Otherwise we are dealing Pakistan like an orphan.thousands of children die but there is no official record.(so measel out break was chosen because its reports are confirmed)
Again the vaccines of this organization is causing Autism,mental disorders and other birth related complications.That means double pronged attack:humanitarian assistance ,tax cheating and massive organized killing.
Oh I will have to mention another aspect , NGos corporations like coca-cola and Pepsi are not only tax free entity but they also exploit the native labour at very cheap rate and also act as carcinogenic for local industry.
First of all raw material for local industry will have exacerbated prices,than tax and than law enforcement problems ,while corporates are not only well protected through private guards they are involved in surveillanca as well.

Why polio is endemic ?

Make a thesis and you will find a very shocking results.I mean presence of Polio patient in Lahore and within that person ,who had taken oral drops ,what this nonsense mean?

Tell me one thing ,Which sort of commodity Pakistan will be after 20 years !
We ,people of Pakistan will have nothing ,,,its not because we are incompetent ,it is because Imf is silently installing this bomb at Evey place ,from farms to industry ,from budgetary allocation to Fuel price adjustment.Have you heard such news or any champion of democracy crying for this,within the Parliament or any where else.Respected readers learn a lesson from Ukraine,Greece ,African states and Iraq,Yeman and Afghanistan.But alas !we are unaware ,infact we are exploited at the best interest of west.it was February 2013 ,when I cried for Hugo Chahvez,its not because he was non muslim ,its because he has demonstrated the world that :,Yes without capitalism ,neoliberalism and Globalization and Thatcherism Progress and prosperity is possible.Since he has plundered the wealth for its people,that's why neoliberals have labelled him a despotic.(Just check out records.)
My respected brothers and sisters where there is democracy ,there is instability.Tell me what has happened in Iraq?Saddam was dictator!yes.so whose regime was better ?Maliki or Saddam .
Come to Libya!Qaddafi ousted,fine " still instability ,its beyond my comprehension ,why there is instability?than comes Egypt!Sisi is an elected president,still Pakistani style corruption and ignorance.I didn't understand it.
I didn't understand because I am independent thinker,I am not getting inspired from illusions,I want solid arguments to draw a conclusion.
And conclusion is this :Without the involvement of educated middle class democracy is at failure.Because this class acts like a pool to streamlined the individuals to move or adjust its class according to achieved status rather than acquired one.But unfortunately the same class is target no one of the war on terror.Which according to me is war on terror with terrorism is.

BRAVO !!!ur animadversion is astute and augustive...apropos to the topic which depicts through aspersion of vindictiveness of Indians all the time... to be cult. Knowing. The axiom that badgers would frustrate ... they are not balmy ... they make full capital out of ur Achilles heels ........THEN WHEN WILL THEY CHANGE THEIR FOREIGN. POLICY..

Your whole above argument in a nutshell:
"No democracy neither dictatorship. Almost all the evils are caused by Democracy.
And Some Mullah type views that 'NGOs working to destabilize the state, spreading disease, causing mental disorder blah blah via oral drops etc."
And finally dragging the IMF. ( and whole of the argument supported by some examples though illogical )"
You have totally derailed the topic though i would like to spend on your arguments cheaply.
Democracy is nothing but a will of people then evil or goodness gained as an outcome is nothing merely people's will directly or more usually indirectly.
Actually you have mingled two different streams in you argument.
Democracy has nothing to do with what you blamed it to have caused.
Democracy is a way of choosing the head for the state mutually. If we take your points then what should be the way of implementation of governance ? Monarchy, Dictatorship, Autocracy then What ?
Main Point: If polio or other diseases are being spread by across boarder organizations then can you explain it apart from sentimental/Clergy type approaches or at least putting some logical evidences ?
And I will simply put one point regarding IMF.
Pakistan Government is losing billions annually due to electricity theft.
This is just a cheap example if compared to other losses. Just tell me who is responsible for bringing IMF loans at home ? Nation or Government ?
If IMF had never given us any loan then definitely we would have this same approach that IMF is just for European countries etc etc. and has never helped us.
I can't enlarge this topic because this is not the topic we have to debate on in this thread.

Coming to the Main Topic: Indo-Pak Relations current scenario.
Glancing the historical aspects that how did these both countries reach in this form, justifiably current scenario had to be as it is.
Both the sides are unwilling to draws any good signs if found doing so somehow are totally ironical.
For 60+ years many agreements are planned particularly regarding Kashmir but most failed at the spot, some survived for short, very few sustained and others ended reluctantly.
At present, see how did both PMs had a meeting during the oath taking of one but soon after that meeting they had another meeting at SAARC conference and both the Leaders were found killing the time even not looking at each other.
One hand we have a rose for good will gesture and a knife in other.
Both sides lack a parallel flow in their leadership and military. If politicians are willing to end skirmish military is threatening at the same time. Some where boats are sent back and same time elsewhere bullets are exchanged.

How did we have to respond the Parrikar's statment.
What if we take it unconventionally ?
We are already full of hatred for our neighbor then why not we should give such verbal things no response to promote positive approaches ?
Letting others advertise their character we have many other tasks to do.
If terrorism is being spread then why not better to respond that terrorism instead of statements ? If India is using terrorism as a tool then why not should not we get him out through the same way he is getting access in us?
We should encourage trust in our Baloch Brothers, Neighboring Afghans, other separatists so that our own nation could not be used as a weapon to destabilize the state. Letting our gates open to our enemies is main thing to be ended before we do more. Most people believe that we have enough to put before UN against India. But can't we see what has UN done since we put Kashmir Issue before them or what it has done with Yemen, Iraq, Syria, African states etc many other countries come to destruction but neither country or UN cared about. So in this era despite all these UN, Global Village etc etc doing yourself is the best option. ( i may be wrong here if so correct please ).

There is no UN exist ...there is might is right situation...we should stop appealing to everyone... some barefaced callous shameful disgruntled bacchanal who are analgesic... being in powerhow can they care laymen equal to world affforting abashed and abasing behaviour towards us... when will the beggar of the country stop begging before people not to God.. when that would happen ..Pakistan would become shrine of ascendency and magnificence..there won't be any altercation if we will stop being aberrent and act as sane individual being SELFDEPENDENT.......bitching and moaning would make a. Nation ambivalent

Statements like that are the norms of the day so nothing is going to change with such type of statements. From both sides one who wants familiarity, come up with such type of views. As so for relation is concerned I would describe the relations of two neighbors in Just one word (disappointing), since the inception, both nations are at logger heads, no doubt issues are complicated, but can be solved with serious and honest efforts from the both side of the border. Furthermore, what both countries lack is sense of compromise. No doubt, it is hard nut to crack to solve different issues, but not impossible. In addition to this normalization of relations can be expected for short time on lower level. Recently, Islamabad and New Delhi have depicted some positive moves but these are not enough to take both nations towards friendship. From Pakistan side, government has not enough power to take any big decision on the different issues like Kashmir, Siachan, and sir creek. Same thing is happening on the other side of border. Thus, to sum up my opinion I must say that, big change would not be expected... Stay blessed

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LOVE all, TRUST a few, do WRONG to none......

@hawx
I fully endorse my support in favours of your. I had already hinted you that we must look to the east like China,no need to cry over the split milk.It will create more turbiidity.
Only be positive and rational...Hey man look ,what the Kshmiris are doing in jammu areas,corruption in India and dissidents within its own locality will set the equilibrium within Pakistan's favour.Remember demography of India is changing very rapidly (I mean Muslims population dividend combined with injustices and inequality proves my assertion right undoubtedly.
This (India) possess no Gwardar,no natural resources ,no highest achievers nor proximity to CIS.So their jealousy is justified.

It is a blessing of almighty Allah.
What we perceieve about Dubai, is tantamount to the paradigm in Gawadar.That's the thorn which is creating problem for pakar type hawks.
But unfortunately what our pooh parliamentarians are doing ?,
Ignorance or incompetence ? decide by youownself.
Pakistan was already highlighted by Berzizinski in 80s and west perceive Gwadar china trans border construction as threat to its own existance , within the region and for India it is indigestible to have investment in arch enemys terroritory.
According to the Dehlis mentality," There is no comparison between an elephant and a rat."
But what they didn't REMEMBER is that RATS ALWAYS WIN THE RACE.(analogy of Pakistan and India)


@ am UK ,I am not deviated from topic ,if you observe very critically than you will understand what is the agenda of west within Muslim country particularly in pakistan.....Afghanistan was just pretext ,it was designed to contain Pakistan.Didn't you observe""" a journey of Americas war on terror to Pakistan gureilla warfare"".Kindly explain me what is the justification of Indian counselates in Afghanistan.Last month ,when afghan soldiers were doing their passing out parade in PMA kakool why within no time TV screen is blinking with Kabul bomblast?

Regarding democracy ,respected authority don't tell me the lesson of equity and fairness ,as once I learnt in my junior classes.I can mention thousands of such examples.
I live in realities and realities are too harsh. On Imf again my stance is proved by yourself. Will Matric pass parliamentarians (through legitimate process come and still know the tactics how to deal with complex economic jargon of this organization?
On deputation their sole aim is to kleptomize the dollars.What about rest(I mean for general public) ,Zardaris jyalism,Nawaz Gullism,Imrans container , Fazlur rehmans Fancticism ,Altaf muhajrism and jis terrorist association.Is it democracy? ,Yes it is the democracy of Pakistan.

.
At the same time world perceives us as ethnic cauldron,Banana republic and scapegoat of Afghanistan.For a while west forget that Pakistan is most terrorist prone area and that India is smouldering this gasoline!

@nelblueblue

Geography of India has approach to get access to the other parts Asia, AFRICA EURPE, AND AMERICA. Location of India acts as a bridge between developing countries. Furthermore it enjoys favorable route from east to south East Asia and Australia. India has access to the Cape of Good Hope and Suez Canal. It can reach U.S.A and Canada through Strait of Malacca. Further India is the fourth largest coal reserves country. Mica and bauxite, fifth largest reserves in the world with more than 90% agricultural land. Thus it is not justifiable that India in envious for our natural resources. Furthermore there is not any comparison between India and Pakistan as former is the biggest democratic country in the world and later one can say that not having any proper system to run the affairs of country.
@nelblublu
Yes I second you on that point that the land of pure is at democal’s sword, from its inception. Matter of concern is that, if foreign hands are involve to destabilize the nation, then our leaders are also accomplice with them. Bhutto hanged not because he proved guilty in court but, he was hanged because he openly challenged the U.S. Resultantly, U.S with the help of ZIA took revenge from him. Not only Bhutto but, all the leaders, those, wanted to make Muslim Umaah strong got same reward from other ZIAS in other countries at that time. Otherwise at present there would be two powers in the world, Muslim Umah and rest ... stay blessed

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LOVE all, TRUST a few, do WRONG to none......