Hamza and kashif bros don't take it a miss.

U see,every other site quotes a different list..Mukt quoted two websites that show CIA at the top of list..If I am the judge,I shall rank ISI as the most oppressive,rogue and out of control agency alright..But as an agency which has a record number of security failures and a history of wrangling with politics,I would never accept it as number one..U know,I can make a website today and can rank my Intelligence agency ABC no.1 in it...

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I shall either find a way,or make one
'Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa'

agreed.no doubt,but ISI is better then RAW.

You are right Dear bro,But I think niether do Mossad and CIA have perfect record,do they?I know there have been failures,Operation Gibraltar,blue star,the one carried out in 1971 etc.are the few examples.But there are instances where ISI has done by all other agencies. And when you weigh ISI with CIA in terms of resources and the capital,You will definitely place ISI above all others.

By the way,You have unorthodox views on almost everything that is discussed here.Do you think this kind of approach helps in CSS?

I seriously do not know about this bro whether it would help or not..And trust me,I haven't modeled my views according to CSS They come through years of reading,analyzing counter arguments and finally coming to a few conclusions..But I have heard from a few seniors that it might get u good marks if u can back ur views with proper arguments.But if u would ask for CSS,I wouldn't advise u to go down the controversial route,because ultimately it comes down to personal discretion of the examiner to pass or fail u..Having controversial views in CSS is risky,but as u know,higher the risk,higher the return..And I did blunt my views a little for CSS exams..sugarcoated them..Had to..in our society,u may not get away with truth all the time..But now I am studying in the School of Politics and International Affairs in UK,and I find it refreshing that here u are encouraged to have different views,and this diversity is respected.Ur supervisor won't reject ur thesis just coz he thinks it is controversial.This is why USA,UK have the top educational standards and we don't...
I would say..if u are going to hold views that are 'out of the box' and mention them in CSS..sugar coat them,and prove them well with arguments..that is IF u aren't already a qualifier..

__________________
I shall either find a way,or make one
'Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa'

10 Best Intelligence Agencies in the World
Intelligence Agency is an effective instrument of a national power. Aggressive intelligence is its primary weapon to destabilize the target. Indeed, no one knows what the intelligence agencies actually do so figuring out who the best intelligence service is can be difficult. The very nature of intelligence often means that the successes will not be public knowledge for years, whereas failures or controversial operations will be taken to the press. It’s a thankless situation. Still, from what little has emerged, one can have an idea of some of the better intelligence services out there, with the understanding that this is based on incomplete data.


10. ASIS – Australia

Formed 13 May 1952
Headquarters Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia
Annual budget $162.5m AUD (2007)
Minister responsible The Hon. Stephen Smith MP, Minister for Foreign Affairs
Agency executive Nick Warner, Director-General
Australian Secret Intelligence Service is the Australian government intelligence agency responsible for collecting foreign intelligence, undertaking counter-intelligence activities and cooperation with other intelligence agencies overseas. For more than twenty years, the existence of the agency was a secret even from its own government. Its primary responsibility is gathering intelligence from mainly Asian and Pacific interests using agents stationed in a wide variety of areas. Its main purpose, as with most agencies, is to protect the country’s political and economic interests while ensuring safety for the people of Australia against national threats.

9. RAW – India

Formed 21 September 1968
Headquarters New Delhi, India
Agency executive K. C. Verma, Secretary (R)
Parent agency Prime Minister’s Office, GoI
Research and Analysis Wing is India’s external intelligence agency. It was formed in September 1968, after the newly independent Republic of India was faced with 2 consecutive wars, the Sino-Indian war of 1962 and the India-Pakistani war of 1965, as it was evident that a credible intelligence gathering setup was lacking. Its primary function is collection of external intelligence, counter-terrorism and covert operations. In addition, it is responsible for obtaining and analyzing information about foreign governments, corporations, and persons, in order to advise Indian foreign policymakers. Until the creation of R&AW, the Intelligence Bureau handled both internal and external intelligence.

8. DGSE – France

Formed April 2, 1982
Preceding agency External Documentation and Counter-Espionage Service
Minister responsible Hervé Morin, Minister of Defence
Agency executive Erard Corbin de Mangoux, Director
Directorate General for External Security is France’s external intelligence agency. Operating under the direction of the French ministry of defence, the agency works alongside the DCRI (the Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence) in providing intelligence and national security, notably by performing paramilitary and counterintelligence operations abroad. The General Directorate for External Security (DGSE) of France has a rather short history compared to other intelligence agencies in the region. It was officially founded in 1982 from a multitude of prior intelligence agencies in the country. Its primary focus is to gather intelligence from foreign sources to assist in military and strategic decisions for the country. The agency employs more than five thousand people.

7. FSB – Russia

Formed 3 April, 1995
Employees 350,000
Headquarters Lubyanka Square
Preceding agency KGB
The Federal Security Service of Russian Federation (FSD) is the main domestic security agency of the Russian Federation and the main successor agency of the Soviet-era Cheka, NKVD and KGB. The FSB is involved in counter-intelligence, internal and border security, counter-terrorism, and surveillance. Its headquarters are on Lubyanka Square, downtown Moscow, the same location as the former headquarters of the KGB. All law enforcement and intelligence agencies in Russia work under the guidance of FSB, if needed. For example, the GRU, spetsnaz and Internal Troops detachments of Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs work together with the FSB in Chechnya. The FSB is responsible for internal security of the Russian state, counterespionage, and the fight against organized crime, terrorism, and drug smuggling. The number of FSB personnel and its budget remain state secrets, although the budget was reported to jump nearly 40% in 2006.

6. BND – Germany

Formed 1 April 1956
Employees 6,050
Agency executive Gehlen Organization
Parent agency Central Intelligence Group
The Bundesnachrichtendienst is the foreign intelligence agency of the German government, under the control of the Chancellor’s Office. The BND acts as an early warning system to alert the German government to threats to German interests from abroad. It depends heavily on wiretapping and electronic surveillance of international communications. It collects and evaluates information on a variety of areas such as international terrorism, WMD proliferation and illegal transfer of technology, organized crime, weapons and drug trafficking, money laundering, illegal migration and information warfare. As Germany’s only overseas intelligence service, the BND gathers both military and civil intelligence.

5. MSS – China

Jurisdiction People’s Republic of China
Headquarters Beijing
Agency executive Geng Huichang, Minister of State Security
Parent agency State Council
Ministry of State Security is the security agency of the People’s Republic of China. It is also probably the Chinese government’s largest and most active foreign intelligence agency, though it is also involved in domestic security matters. Article 4 of the Criminal Procedure Law gives the MSS the same authority to arrest or detain people as regular police for crimes involving state security with identical supervision by the procuratorates and the courts. It is headquartered near the Ministry of Public Security of the People’s Republic of China in Beijing. According to Liu Fuzhi, Secretary-General of the Commission for Politics and Law under the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China and Minister of Public Security, the mission of the MSS is to ensure “the security of the state through effective measures against enemy agents, spies, and counter-revolutionary activities designed to sabotage or overthrow China’s socialist system.” One of the primary missions of the MSS is undoubtedly to gather foreign intelligence from targets in various countries overseas. Many MSS agents are said to have operated in the Greater China region (Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan) and to have integrated themselves into the world’s numerous overseas Chinese communities. At one point, nearly 120 agents who had been operating under non-official cover in the U.S., Canada, Western and Northern Europe, and Japan as businessmen, bankers, scholars, and journalists were recalled to China, a fact that demonstrates the broad geographical scope of MSS agent coverage.

4. CIA – America

Formed September 18, 1947
Employees 20,000
Agency executive Leon Panetta, Director
Parent agency Central Intelligence Group
CIA is the largest of the intelligence agencies and is responsible for gathering data from other countries that could impact U.S. policy. It is a civilian intelligence agency of the United States government responsible for providing national security intelligence to senior United States policymakers. The CIA also engages in covert activities at the request of the President of the United States of America. The CIA’s primary function is to collect information about foreign governments, corporations, and individuals, and to advise public policymakers. The agency conducts covert operations and paramilitary actions, and exerts foreign political influence through its Special Activities Division. It has failed to control terrorism activities including 9/11, Not even a single top level Al-Queda leader captured own its own in the past 9 years – ‘they missed 1 Million’ Soviet troops marching into Afghanistan’. Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction, Have the found them yet? -Number of defectors/ double agents numbers close to a thousand. On 50th anniversary of CIA, President Clinton said ”By necessity, the American people will never know the full story of your courage. Indeed, no one knows that what CIA really does”. Highly funded and technologically most advanced Intelligence set-up in the world.

3. M1-6 – United Kingdom

Formed 1909 as the Secret Service Bureau
Jurisdiction Government of the United Kingdom
Headquarters Vauxhall Cross, London
Minister responsible The Rt Hon. William Hague MP, Foreign Secretary
Agency executive Sir John Sawers KCMG, Director General
Parent agency Foreign and Commonwealth Office
The British have had a long public perception of an effective intelligence agency (due to the success of the unrealistic, yet entertaining, James Bond movies). This perception matches reality. MI6, the British equivalent to the CIA, has had two big advantages in staying effective: The British Official Secrets Act and D notices can often prevent leaks (which have been the bane of the CIA’s existence). Some stories have emerged. In the Cold War, MI6 recruited Oleg Penkovsky, who played a key part in the favorable resolution of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and Oleg Gordievski, who operated for a decade before MI6 extracted him via Finland. The British were even aware of Norwood’s activities, but made the decision not to tip their hand. MI6 also is rumored to have sabotaged the Tu-144 supersonic airliner program by altering documents and making sure they fell into the hands of the KGB.

2. Mossad – Israel

Formed December 13, 1949 as the Central Institute for Coordination
Employees 1,200 (est)
Agency executive Meir Dagan, Director
Parent agency Office of the Prime Minister
The Mossad is responsible for intelligence collection and covert operations including paramilitary activities. It is one of the main entities in the Israeli Intelligence Community, along with Aman (military intelligence) and Shin Bet (internal security), but its director reports directly to the Prime Minister. The list of its successes is long. Israel’s intelligence agency is most famous for having taken out a number of PLO operatives in retaliation for the attack that killed eleven Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic games in Munich. However, this agency has other success to its name, including the acquisition of a MiG-21 prior to the Six-Day war of 1967 and the theft of the plans for the Mirage 5 after the deal with France went sour. Mossad also assisted the United States in supporting Solidarity in Poland during the 1980s.

1. ISI – Pakistan

Formed 1948
Jurisdiction Government of Pakistan
Headquarters Islamabad, Pakistan
Agency executive Lieutenant General Ahmad Shuja Pasha, PA Director General
With the lengthiest track record of success, the best know Intelligence so far on the scale of records is ISI. The Inter-Services Intelligence was created as an independent unit in 1948 in order to strengthen the performance of Pakistan’s Military Intelligence during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1947. Its success in achieving its goal without leading to a full scale invasion of Pakistan by the Soviets is a feat unmatched by any other through out the intelligence world. KGB, The best of its time, failed to counter ISI and protect Soviet interests in Central Asia. This GOLD MEDAL makes it rank higher than Mossad. It has had 0 double agents or Defectors through out its history, considering that in light of the whole war campaign it carried out from money earned by selling drugs bought from the very people it was bleeding, The Soviets. It has protected its Nuclear Weapons since formed and it has foiled Indian attempts to attain ultimate supremacy in the South-Asian theatres through internal destabilization of India. It is above All laws in its host country Pakistan ‘A State, with in a State’. Its policies are made ‘outside’ of all other institutions with the exception of The Army. Its personnel have never been caught on camera. Its is believed to have the highest number of agents worldwide, close to 10,000. The most striking thing is that its one of the least funded Intelligence agency out of the top 10 and still the strongest.


source :http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com/...-in-the-world/

ISI,no doubt,is one of the best agencies in the world.if not more than not even less than cia and mosad on the following grounds

1.while comparing with any other agency of the world one should carry out a relative comparison instead of absolute.

2.americaz ambittions of putting ISI under civilian control,constant campaign of portraying ISI as an terrorist organisation(just because of contradictory interests),direct dealing with ISI on matters of national security etc are all the indicators of importance of this organisation.

3.when U.S says that it cannot win war in afghanistan without PAKz help,in other words it means that it needs intelligence sharing and co operation from ISI.(an incompetent agency?)

4.winning or losing in a battlefield is not only the outcome of intelligence failure instead it is a combination of different factors including technological advancement etc.putting the blame of failure in a war solely on an intelligence agency is not prudent.especially in case of 1971 where there were a lot of factors were invovled in the separation of PAKISTAN including political failure.

5.there was a failure in abbottabad episode but not a complete failure as even the americans admit that they reached OBL with PAKz help and cooperation.

it is not that ISI is an organisation of saints.there a lot of things to criticize about it.for example "state within a state" which is sometimes presented with pride by some of our citizens.ISIz interference in politics etc

constructive criticism is the need of the hour infact the need of any hour.

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Puppet,Slave,Lover

I never said I don't accept references or books, you completely are misunderstanding. What I want to say is, for every book and or article on the internet you will find huge material be it books or articles against the books and/or articles you quote. Which Is why, I suggested, to debate from your knowledge (It can be based on books) but don't just copy/paste with 0 of your input, that just makes you a copy cat and dumb


Math is not counting numbers 1 2 3 4 ... and adding or subtracting numbers, that might be math for you but not for everyone. But let's see how you define a theorem.

It is simple logic and math, If you prove a theorem wrong by any method (there can be several methods) then it remains wrong. However, what we are talking about can be taken as conjectures .. theorems can be proved either correct or wrong, if proven correct they will never be proven wrong and vice versa (unless one makes a mistake) ..

You should read about Law Of contradiction, simple topic and easy to understand. X and NOT-X cannot co exist, You cannot be absent and present in the same class at the same time, either you are absent or either you are present, simple. You can prove things or disprove things by law of contradiction, you made some claims and I highlighted the contradictions in your arguments.


Again shows your ignorance about the subject. You have NOT PROVEN anything yet, I have pointed out numerous contradictions in your posts and I have quoted several sites that were against the point of view you tried to propagate by copy/pasting links, which by LAW OF CONTRADICTION makes your arguments NULL AND VOID unless PROVEN otherwise.

That does not even make sense. People who speak against your view point are "biased" and you want everyone to believe in what you quote from people who supports your point of view or in other words whom point of view you have copied because you liked it better. This is just funny and childish

If you don't believe in sayings of xyz then why did you started copy/pasting links rather than discussing things logically and rationally. You should come up with logical points as to why will the afghan taliban support Pakistan because I don't see a good reason for them doing so. It was due to Pakistan help with the US that the taliban were overthrown from the gov, now they will help pakistan because? You again said nothing logical but only emotional stuff that made no sense at all.


It means you do agree that the Army of Pakistan are liars and 2-faced people who openly claims that we don't support Taliban against america and yet they do so? Am I right? hahahah Be careful when you speak ;P

Also, If Afghan taliban have symbiotic relations with TTP, then how can you say that they are not harming pakistan? Was this a joke or are you trying to be funny?


And do you mean that the ISI is providing them with funds and resources? You are wrong, lol. Your ISI isn't very capable of doing things like that under the nose of USA. Maybe on a very lower level, but war with USA will not be won with low level AID. Afghan taliban might have their own sources, who knows? Can you logically prove that why not RUSSIA might be helping Afghan taliban in order to take revenge from the states when they supported the same taliban in order to overthrow russia? PLEASE DO NOT WRITE STORIES OR PASTE ARTICLES, DISCUSS IT LOGICALLY, IF YOU CAN


And When Indians were training them, our ISI was sleeping or under anesthesia? You just proved how incompetent they are. It was all the fault of army that we lost what we now call Bangladesh. You can make any excuse you want to feel better but the truth is that our army despite of being HUGE in number surrendered to the Indian army (fearing death, losses) .. You are making ISI comparison with CIA, lol? first make it's comparison with RAW and see how badly they have smashed our ISI then go to another level of comparison ..

This is exactly what Great and powerful nations do (talking of India). Regardless of what you call their intelligence failure, they knocked us out and secured a victory. Stop quoting sources of pro-pakistanis or pakistani sympathizers, you as an APJ, should rely on neutral sources. Since you love quoting wikipedia here you go Kargil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .. this is an example for the pakistanis that how to recapture one's posts .. Pakistan lost entire bangladesh, and what did they do to recapture it? and look at india .. a small portion yet they did it and humiliated us .. it's a shame on our army and ISI .. and moreover, it was WE that cried to the americans to stop the war and nawaz sharif already disclosed this when mush came to him crying to stop the war somehow .. anyway ...... sad past, nations that don't learn from history will never succeed .. remember this

and oh, make sure you read the article .. those who were supporting pak army i.e the jihadis condemned the decision of retreating and decided to stay and fight yet what did our BELOVED and SUPPOSEDLY STRONG AND ELITE ARMY DID ???? WE love retreating and surrendering, don't we? We love taking decisions (AS ARMY OFFICERS) but when we get OWNED we start begging the politicians for help ?????? BOOH

Yet another emotional and childish statement. You pushed no one but yourself lol, Pakistan army advanced only until the Indians were involved when they came back they LITERALLY STOPPED our army from advancing .. Many wars happened b/w Pakistan and India, you should now be aware of the capabilities .. Pakistan can't even hold a 0.0000000000000000001 INCH of space of India while India ROCKED OUR COUNTRY AND REMOVED 50% of it by removing what you call as bangladesh hahahahahahahha SO BE LOGICAL PLEASE DON'T BE SO EMOTIONAL

Yet another childish statement. 2 People are to be given credit (If required) and they are as follows

1 - CIA (FOR SPONSORING THE WAR, PROVIDING EQUIPMENT (WAR WINNING EQUIPMENT, ID RATHER SAY), FINANCIAL AID, INTELLIGENCE)

2 - Taliban (They physically AND mentally fought, were killed, yet they fought and did not retreated (history of pak army is exactly the opposite, they love to retreat and surrender))

The above 2 deserves more credit than the ISI itself, ISI was just like the "middle man" and do you know what people call the middle man in an unsocial language? Considering the forum's reputation, I'd rather not used that word here but you should know it well .. ISI merely trained the taliban and enjoyed taking $$$$$ from the USA .. Ah, once again, ISI Interested in $$ and not national Interest .. geeeZ


Now that you have no logical argument to defend ISI, you start talking about budgets .. lol, Exactly my point, you don't talk about the point but go round and round ..

Anyway, It's Interesting that you finally agreed MOSSAD is far BETTER THAN the ISI. And What success rate are you talking about? Sorry I don't blame you considering your weak mathematics skills, since you being weak in math are bound to be weak in statistics as well, isn't it? CIA was formed much much before the ISI so naturally it had operated many many more operations than ISI can even dream of. CIA is not restricted to a small region, even If you see sites that label ISI ahead of CIA .. do check what do they write in their specialization .. they say and i quote "Specialty : Destabilization of INDIA" hahahahahha that's what the role of ISI merely is in the eyes of those who rank it above CIA ISI at most can do operations against raw and in afghanistan etc, look what CIA has done till now .. there is no comparison, CIA operations are so large that if you start talking about it tomorrow i bet it won't end till the next year so please don't me statements that make people laugh :P

HAHAHAHAHAH you just proved you have adopted double standards. When you want me to believe something you STRESS on sites and references and books, and when I talk about logic and "making sense" and setting sites and references aside, you call me illogical and childish etc .. now see what you have done yourself?



[quote]Im not being emotional when I claim the above. Did I claim for instance, that our SSG is better than Navy Seals? Or that ISI is better than Mossad? That’s bcuz in both the cases, they are better hands down although not miles apart in the previous example. Im not day-dreaming but neither am I an apologist for my nation, like you. We need to however, monitor our agencies’ failures so that we don’t repeat mistakes, like we did recently. That has set a good example. But don’t go about hammering them down now. Emotional people dont give concrete examples or references. They basically, 'assume'.[/quote

ISI has failed every now and then, our Army has failed every now and then and for some reason I cannot say our AIR FORCE has failed every now and then so they can be considered as "average" but They should have really shown some competence in abbt issue but they didn't, anyways let's forget about it and come to the topic

You were emotional when you said ISI is better than CIA, you were emotional when you said If US have navy seals then pakistan have "Al-blahblah" I actually forgot the name as well, hahahahah AL WHAT???????? lol ?????????? AL-EXCUSES I bet, that's what fits it or should it be AL-cORRuptionist?


Senseless, illogical. You should have rather said "I don't EXPECT the UNEXPECTED".

I wonder how there can be any comparison among the intelligence agencies of the world. The environment, nature of work and tasks carried out by each agency vary colossally, and it relies upon the political influence, power and status of the nation in the world to which respective agency belongs. For example, American CIA has a global outreach and much more resources available at hand compared to any other agency. Contemporarily there is no global competition of intelligence gathering going on, as in during the cold war days. Dont forget the fact that even luck plays a huge part in success or failure of an intelligence mission . During World War II days, British Intelligence proved to be the best, but soon after WWII British Intelligence was no longer as good and effective as before, the reason was simply drastic changes in the political, military and economic outlook of the world. Similarly during WWII, Germany was perhaps the biggest military power of the world, but her intelligence proved to be more like a sophomore , the reason was Germany was almost unilaterally taking on all the powers of world, and hence sources of intelligence for the Germans became limited as more and more of the populations began to doubt German ambitions. Therefore, there can be no comparison as ranking an intelligence agency because each performs under different environment and for different national interests. However performance of intelligence agencies can be compared , to some extent, during wartime (as of who gather intelligence first and who is able to penetrate in the enemy lines etc), and if you take that parameter then the CIA has serioulsly outclassed and outmaneuvered our beloved ISI this time (this is what they have admitted themselves )

@candid guy

Hitler suffered not even a scratch in the hands of CIA though his body was "mishandled" by the NKVD (Soviet secret police of that time), atleast as per the story that surfaced ...

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

Yeah,But his demise owes itself to the entrance of American army under Dwight Eisenhower into WWII.And where there is American Army there is CIA.So some how the other it was CIA.