Well,I can clearly see a marked change in the attitude of the earswhile deniers of importance of the Pak army.Until very recently I could see people completely downplaying army insofar as questioning its existence.Now, they have switched from the”army hamara sara budget kha gai”attitude to the”army ka ehtisaab hona chahiye belief”.that’s encouraging,I hope we shall be on the same side of the bar very soon.

NOW, coming to some of the questions
(1) who are we in a state of war with?
Ans:
Sateza kar raha hai azal se ta imroz
Charagh-e-mustafavi se sharar-e-bu lahabi

The fact of the matter is, dear fellas, that war is already on,we cant see it-as we can’t see most of the things,that really are happening-but it’s on.

The day Islam struck roots,anti-islamic forces have been trying to disrupt it by hook or crook.Pakistan,which I call “Islami tamaddan ka akhri namuna” is the most important target of these staunchly anti-islamic states.

As David Ben Gurion’s(the first Israeli Prime Minister) speech of 1948 reads,
“The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs. “This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan. “Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan. “It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism, by all disguised and secret plans.”
Speaks for itself.
Every country of the world that has cultivated animosity towards Islam is an enemy of Pakistan, America, Israel, India and Afghanistan (being the only Muslim anti-islamic state) is to name a few. But there are numerous other countries like france,Russia etc that are not happy with Pakistan’s Nuclear arsenal. These courtiers by all means are trying to dismantle our beloved country.

So,who do you people think is deterring them all or who is the acting as a shield against the nefarious plans of these coutries?Yes, decidedly the army and ISI,had.
(2)The budget and the army:
Lest we should forget the last will of our forefathers,that is not to get disarmed,so that we may not be at the mercy of the agressors.And amir hasan nadvi sahib tau yahi waja batate hain hamaray downfall ki.

For those,who want army to curtail the its budget i would want them to read this out.

Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir(Conqueror)A lesson for us!

Aur ye bhi dekh lijye kon kitna use kar raha hai.

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...sas&rank=42#pk


(3)Amy accountability:Ye theek waqt hai iska?yahi tau hamaray dushman chahte hain is wat.kya ham tab tak intizar nahin kar sakte jab tak ye khatray k badi hat nahin jatay?

Aur agar tau ye sirf hamza bro,kashif bhai and khan baba want accontability and stuff tau koi problem nahin hai cuz esa kuch nahin hone wala,but agar sab hi log ye chahtay hain tau hamara khuda hi hafiz.

And if you want us not to try to political scientists,aap log Norman frankenstein ban'ne ki koshish chor dain lolx.

Army ka ehtisaab isi liye hona chahiye bhai k budget kha gaai and performance koi nahy di

__________________
I shall either find a way,or make one
'Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa'

Oh,but aaplog apna ye ehtisaab thora postpone nahin kar sakte?

yaar baat yeh hai ke sab yeh kehna chah rahe they ke hamain aik national army for pakistan chahiye jo ke sab pakistanioon ko apne jaisa equal citizen of pakistan samjhe. na ke aisi army jo ke hamain "civilian" samajhti hai (In 1977 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions, Chapter II, Article 50 "Definition of civilians and civilian population" indicates that a civilian is not a legal combatant) aur khud ko sab se bala tar .

__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

Nahy.Bilkul Nahy.Justice delayed is justice denied.Kubhi ksi ne civilian idaron ka ehtisab postpone kurne ki bat ki hey,halank they are the institutions that run the real day to day routine of the country and are more important than army for Pakistan's survival and 'workability'..Nahy na..Q k ehtisab foran hona chahiye,or ibratnaak hona chahiye..chahe army ka ho ya civilian institutions ka..Ye jo 'Baad me ehtisab kar leyna,ubi hmein awaam ki support ki zrurt hey' is just a prank to counter the calls for accountability and an attempt to calm down the sentiments..And everybody knows from where these ideas are gettin their funding from....This is the right time..The public has woken up and the iron is hot..This is a watershed opportunity which has to be availed if we want a democratic and strong Pakistan,with transparency and the ascendancy of civil institutions at its center...Anything 'un patriotic' or 'unconstitutional' in what I have said??

__________________
I shall either find a way,or make one
'Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa'

No! you haven't said anything unpatriotic or unconstitutional,but this not the right tuime,shall i establish an allegory to make you people realize the gravity of the situation?

This is not the time g,jab dushman k hamle ka khatra ho tau aap apne guard ki accountability shuru kar dain,ta k aap isi main lage rahain and apka dushman aa k aap and apke guard dono ko seedha kar jaye.

Civilian Vs Army ? Is this the topic of discussion?

__________________
I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have

@ All
Everybody seems to complain about my long posts. Everyone else also writes this much. How about some SELF-ACCOUNTABILITY before you carry the torch of the military accountability. And of course, in the instances when my posts are long, i happen to have some solid material to write about- unlike most here who waste space merely in criticism or lousy jokes.


QUOTE=khanbaba512;314019]@ aphrodite

Ofcourse i am not going to mention the Taliban in paper ..but i was just appreciating your useful posts in which you took pain to educate the uneducated aspirants of CSS like me ...you went too deep into the politics in this point..We all know..(When i Wrote we all know this means that i am refering to your useful post )...about the Taliban strategy..What are the west intentions... etc etc..we all just don't understand (WE all just don't understand means that you forgot to mention the perticular event in your useful posts)...why we can't blame Army for a perticular security lapse..and why we see Pro-Army and Pro-ISI rallies these days..We just differ on this point..Is it against the law to criticize a failure..At this point we get divided in Pro and Anti army...and please don't just start from the begining by saying that we shouldn't criticize the Whole army ...[/QUOTE]

Uhhh, O-K-A-Y. You aren’t making sense to me in the first part of the post. And for the second part, I don’t want to sound cliché when I say for the umpteenth time that accountability should be done. But not the way we are currently doing right now. Aur rallies nikaalne mai kya problem hai? Isnt that democratic?

Ab aap eik eik policeman ke murder pe roenge? Its part of the job of law enforcement agencies that they acknowledge the risks involved too. 1-2 honest police officers ke hone se missions nahi bante, jab 90% police corrupt hai, toh who ensure karte hain ke aisa kuch na ho. Inquiries aises buhat se murders ki hoti hain. Findings bhi ajati hai. Kaarwaai nahi hoti. In Karachi, as I said earlier, it was Musharraf’s fault he included MQM in govt. And when the findings point to their criminal activities- how on earth will anybody take action. However when army was ruling the country, de facto, the situation in Karachi wasn’t so out of control despite ANP’s powerful role here even then. Itna bad scene ab hua hai. Is waqt lekin, sirf MQM ya ANP target killings nahi kar rahi. Most of it is done by TTP terrorists. What you gonna do about that now? It’s a separate kind of criminal activity- jo ke saare mulk mai hai.
Aur bhai sahab, MQM didnt come back due to Zulfiqar Mirza's leave. Vital portfolios were available to them initially too. But they were growing intense over the failing condition of governance and were contemplating an exit before the mud-flinging begins. Which is why they were blackmailing the government to give them even more lucrative portfolios so as to stay with them. And then, Zulfiqar Mirza was the frontman for those who wanted an operation in Karachi. Even if he's gone, those people remain. This is what MQM still fears.

Lol. Apko masla kis se hai? Mere writing style se, ya perceived lambi post se, ya meri superimposing se? Pehli baat to yeh, ke yahan koi paabandi hai kisi ko reply karne ki? Poore forum pe, yehi format hota hai discussion ka. You usually talk to ‘each other’, not making personal notes. Per shayd aap khud se baatein karne ko tarjeeh dete hain. Koi baat nahi, I got you
Doosra yeh, ke agar aap wapas jaa ke meri post parhen toh who apki is post se agar zyada nahi to baraabar hi hogi. Apko lambi who isliye lagi hogi keh us mai eik bara hissa quoted hai. Aur phir, who saari post aapke liye nahi likhi gayi hai. Kuch aur members ko bhi address kiya gaya hai. So what you’re facing is an optical illusion, my friend.
Teesri baat yeh ke, kisi debate ka matlab yeh nahi hota ke un ideas ko ‘superimpose’ kiya jaa raha ho. Iska yeh bhi matlab nahi hai key yeh koi personal vendetta ho. Apko shayd in debates ki aadat naa ho, lekin parhe-likhe log aisi debates usually karte hain aur is waqt is thread ke andar bhi buhat saare log, continuous debate kar rahe hain- including YOU.
Chauthi baat yeh, ke naa yahan koi neutral banda hai. Kyunke sab eik extreme tarnishing campaign pe lage hue hain. That’s hardly neutral. And as Bhutto once said, “you cant be neutral, there is either white or black, no grey”. So woh log jo neutral ‘play’ karte hain, who naa idhar ke rehte hain, naa udhar ke. Phir unko agle ki baat superimposition hi lage gi- all because they didn’t have the courage to take a stance and then fight for it.
Paanchvi baat yeh, ke APNE mulk ki fauj ko uphold karna koi gunah nahi. Uske liye unke payroll pe hona ya unki naukri karna zaroori nahi. Yeh to mulki jazbe ki baat hai, aur jab koi aur qaabil-e-taareef idaara baaki hi na bache, toh unko choose karna chahiye jo ab bhi mulk ke liye larte marte hain.
Aakhri baat yeh, ke mai ne yeh nahi kaha ke Saleem Shahzad ko agencies ne uthaya tha. Mai ne yeh kaha tha ke SHAYD uthaya ho, because I don’t know much about this situation. I do know however, ke uske paas koi aisi information zaroor thi, aur foreign interests ki marzi se thi- jo Pakistan ke interest mai NAHI thi. Ive already explained why in my previous post. Waise toh in my discussions with very knowledgeable people, ive come to know that ISI doesn’t torture or kill people unnecessarily. It just blackmails them to back off- if its an issue of national security. But God knows best.
Aur inside enemy kon hain, yeh abhi aapko bhi nahi pata. Ill commend you the day you figure this one out.
Don’t worry, ab se koi post aapko address nahi karoongi. Kahin heart attack naa hojae apko.
Ab zara uper apne quote ko dekhe, aur mere wale ko. Zyada farq nahi hai bhaijan.

Very nice analysis Saleeqa, Keep it up.

Offcourse the country is going through a type of stagnation process whereby our political thinkers, even though some trying hard, still appear to be taking care of thier own interests. The militancy has the nation, the economy is in the downfall, corruption is rampant and all other sectors are in abysmal condition.

However, the country is on a crossroads, from where it can take the progressive steps or may even deteriorate it self. The vibrant media, awared civil society, independent judiciary, a little change in the attitude of the leaders, demographic changes in Pakistan's elite - political, military and bureacracy - and opposition of nation to the militancy, are all the positive factors which back the first scenario. This means reforms in the whole system ranging from economy to civil and military bureaucracy are easier to undertake than ever in the past.

To be on the path of progress, I think we need a multifacted, integrated and comprehensive approach to deal with all these issues collectively. Merely forming commitees for each of the issue will not help. We can tackle these problems.

My views on tackling all these issues can be discussed sometimes later; the important here is to take into account the precious views of Saleeqa.


I don't really understand this. Does it mean to have a government without opposition?

However, for a better political structure, we need to have an independent election commission, fully implemented 18th amendment to tackle provincial autonomy issue, end of patriarchal and monarchy type politics, reform the political parties to end ansectral politics, section 62 and 63 of the constitution be implemented in their true spirit - these sections deals with qualification and disqualification of the MPs - and a graduate assembly is a must with due representation to the workers, farmers and other technical sectors.



Excellent Idea, however to do this extensive debate, the parliament should consists of educated, honest and patriotic politicians, for whom nothing is above the law and nothing is precious than the country.



well sovereignty is a much emotional issue however this must be noted that we have been losting our sovereignty bit by bit since the first aid came in Pakistan. no one in the world helps without his interests so do the countries.

to be able to see in the eyes of our opponents, we must first set our own house in order. we need to revive our economy and get rid of fiscal and trade deficit. to revive the economy many reforms - tax, FBR, automation with the help of Nadra, tax on all, all incomes, reform the PSEs, undo the energy crisis - needs to be taken.


military as well as political leadership is responsible for this menace. only rolling the military heads will not solve the problem. we need to overhaul the system in a way which result not in deterioration of the system rather in progression of the system. such an aggressive action can be counter productive.

to balance the civil military imbalance,we need to do the following;

1. amend the instrument of precedence which keeps the COAS and CJCSC on six number in national hierarchy
2. politician must end thier "looking towards military" appraoch
3. given our security issues with India, Afghanistan, Iran and domestic sectarian & militant conflict, we cannot, at this time period, completely end the role of military. inshort the military should be given a limited and organized say in national security which can be done through rearranging the national security council and strengthening the defence committee of the cabinet.


offcourse but civilian would have to show capability to control them. a primary pass minister would be "nothing" for this agency, if he is put incharge. the ISI alongwith all other agencies can be organized under one umbrella with having coordination on district and tehsil level to improve the quality of intellegence and reaction. an home land security type ministry is a must for pakistan, which would take care of all internal matters realted to security. this ministry can have all spy agencies under its control except the ones dealing with external threats. the agencies dealing with external threates - ISI comes under this category - can be effectively controled by a revised and strengthend national security council headed by the prime minister and defence minister as second in command.

if national security council cannot be framed on such lines, ministry of defence should be put under hihgly capable minister and the armed forces along with all exterior spy agencies can be put under its control constitutionally.


yes, but here we can do a little. india has to end its obsession with pakistan and vise verca. Kashmir is realy a matter of strategic concern for pakistan, given the chaning dimensions of power - emanating from space and waters.

However, a very sincere effort to start enhaunced bilateral trade must be undertaken. at the same time put all disputable issues on the table separately.

at this time in space, its good idea but over simplified. much hinderence would come from india to such an initiiative. in pakistan military, religious elite, political elite would not reckon with such an undertaknig.



offcourse.

its a very good sugesstion. along with this different think tanks must be attached to such an council as it is not the war with any country whcih remains for a few days, rather its a war inconclusive for last 10 years. such an attachement would give the council informed decision making capability.

__________________
Ahmad Shakeel Babar
.
"If you really want to achieve something the whole universe conspires for you to get your dream realized."

"In Karachi, as I said earlier, it was Musharraf’s fault he included MQM in govt. And when the findings point to their criminal activities- how on earth will anybody take action. However when army was ruling the country, de facto, the situation in Karachi wasn’t so out of control despite ANP’s powerful role here even then. Itna bad scene ab hua hai. Is waqt lekin, sirf MQM ya ANP target killings nahi kar rahi. Most of it is done by TTP terrorists. What you gonna do about that now? It’s a separate kind of criminal activity- jo ke saare mulk mai hai. "




All the police men who participated in the operation where killed in the period when your loyal,patriotic generals were ruling the country.I mean between 2002 and 2005.And please now please don't tell me that "ka us waqt democracy the or army kya kar sakti the."

Ma na ya kab kaha ka sirf ANP ya MQM kar rahi ha,agar sirf TTP kar rahi the to saray wo he police men kyu murder hoe jino na participate kya the operation ma or us waqt TTP baad ma emerge hoe ha.Agar sari police corrupt the to us waqt army jo ka rule kar rahi the mulk pa wo kya kar rahi the.

ANP,PPP,MQM,and all banned sectarian organizations were involved in the target killing.