Originally Posted by pureapak

Okay you give me an example of current Islamic state in the world ????

I am unfolding the practical picture of the world to you while you are all focused on the theoretical stuff....

Originally Posted by Fatima47

Prophet (P.B.U.H) committed certain mistakes. Companions committed certain mistakes. We all are humans and have our tendencies. I personally believe that giving theory of an ideal islamic state, totally overlooking the contemporary world dynamics is like living in a bubble.
Every concept seems perfect as regards to theory, every concept tells you its limitations when it comes to implementation.

Originally Posted by Fatima47

Meri behen I have, in the beginning, explained the perfect concept of an Islamic state and how that can be achieved and I have also explained why that is not possible.



And I am sure you know there are so many interpretations of verses of Quran and various hadiths. There are hadiths that have been fabricated. Who is going to tell us that? Was the situation same in times of Prophet (P.B.U.H) or even in that of rightly guided caliphs? I have already stressed over the need of a society that could promote tolerance and free thinking.



Do you know why I gave example of Hiz ut Tahrir? They are staunch champs of Caliphate. I quoted their example because they are the ones who have an ideology but how they are going to implement it, they have no road map. Whats the end result? Where in England you get to see Salafis, Wahabis, Malikis etc establishing mosques and Islamic centers, these people are the ones who are still stuck in debating with people that there can only be a single entity caliph, the caliph should not deviate from Islam etc etc. I have already explained to what extent your beliefs have nothing to do with state or individuals, and this is where we need freethinking and tolerance. I am getting your point that we have Quran and Sunnah for our guidance. Lakin meri behen agar Quran aur Sunnah har cheez par itnay he clear hain then why do we have so many sects? Where was it that I said we cannot implement Shariah? Did you carefully read my post? Because I have clearly mentioned "Its His law that is supreme and not the ruler."

When did I say that its impossible to reunite a billion Muslims? (What I meant was that you cannot REFORM a billion Muslims, reform them like Prophet (P.B.U.H) reformed Companions) The example of Muslim Union I have given in my post should have told you what would it take to get united.




Let me give you an example now. If you carefully read the posts that were made by Pureapak and me, you'll get a hunch what all was going around. Can any common law penalize me or him for that? No (because at the maximum, it has something to do with morality and nothing else). Now if it comes to an Islamic state, even then both of us cant be penalized. No. Why? Because its not a kind of transaction for which he or I can be held liable. For this I'll advise you to read the kind of acts we have in Islamic law. My friend, thats the problem. We all are humans. We all have our limitations. I'll never back off from demanding an Islamic State because I know that I am transgressing Allah's hudud owing to this system.

No, everything will not be alright but most of them will get fixed. At least the poor Muslims who are being persecuted might find a way out. At least, we will get rid of a riba-based system and will no more be at war with Allah and His Prophet (P.B.U.H). At least, people will know that they every law that governs transactions is binding on them. At least, we'll have common foreign policy and common military.



Again, that was a concept of an ideal system. Where was it that I pointed problems? The ethnic, cultural, sectarian problems that I pointed out do exist in today's world. How can we get rid of them by reforming people?


Plus, Khuda nay aaj tak us qoum ke halat nahi badli, na ho jisko khayal aap apni halat k badal janay ka. Prophet (P.B.U.H) did dawah for 23 years and then established a state. Muslim scholars have been doing the same for more than 1200 years now, whats the result? On the other side, if I assume that all Palestinians, all Iraqis, all Afghanis, all Chechens, all Bosnians, have reformed themselves, what should they do now? Keep getting killed or what? Do you disagree that we are at war with Allah and His Prophet (P.B.U.H)? Do you believe that a state, no matter how much Islamic, cannot do anything alone in this regards? Do you believe that its only the concept of Muslim Union that can help us from getting rid of this riba-based system? Do you agree that Muslims are being victimized all over the world? So, should we wait for reforming ourselves and reforming one billion people or should we be a little practical and accept that dawah and political concept of state etc are all good but they alone cannot and will not suffice. Seven centuries have passed, another seven will pass and we still will be here discussing things which even do not matter.

Unfortunately, I feel that the unity you are looking for never existed after Prophet (P.B.U.H). Prophet (P.B.U.H) committed certain mistakes. Companions committed certain mistakes. We all are humans and have our tendencies. I personally believe that giving theory of an ideal islamic state, totally overlooking the contemporary world dynamics is like living in a bubble.
Every concept seems perfect as regards to theory, every concept tells you its limitations when it comes to implementation.

Originally Posted by xaara~hussain

acha, yeh new information hai. what mistake did He SAWW made? please btayie ga.

Originally Posted by pureapak

it is your religious duty to correct me where i go wrong and where i need guidance...
evading your duties is no good at your part dear.....


okay if you are unable to answer .. you may keep it on hush......

Originally Posted by pureapak

@Abbasi

Dear why are you trying to prove that i am null and void in religious knowledge ??

coz so far i have not copy and pasted googled data as you have been all the time ???

i have no idea what makes you so rigid in your approach towards a mutual understanding of the topic...

you are standing still on the same conservative arguments when it comes to accept the good in secularism.... Why do you find it impossible to bring the changes in our religious concepts which may best guide us establishing equal footing with the modern developing world.. We do not want to lack behind as we have been so for sticking to the rigid doctrines made in clergy schools...
we want to make the non muslim comunity feel that we are no conservative and fantasy lovers.. Our religion is demonstrable and we are the first to encourage the world towards meaningful changes for the collective good of humanity... We are in favor of the human development in science and technology , socio political , cultural and in every field of life we are distinctively ahead coz our religion guides us towards the excellent vistas of life with changing waves of time and space.... we live afresh and love to see afresh...