My dear sister you have misread my post.i never said Taliban give us shariah and I know the difference between shariah in KSA or as practiced by Taliban and real Shariah.infact being a student of Islamic studies i can't say this.even a simple muslim with limited knowledge knows that Shariah and deen is given by Allah alone.Plz reread my post to clear your confusion.i said "Shariah that Taliban want to impose"like they did in Afghanistan and want to in tribal areas of Pakistan where girls are not allowed to get education which is right given to every Muslim.i wonder who calls it Shariah!!! Let me tell you i am staunch supporter of Islamic state where Islam will be followed in real sense like it was being practiced during times of Holy Prophet(PBUH).Secularism exists nowhere in my dictionary beacuse Islam is such a beautiful and complete deen which gives rights to every person whether Muslim or non-Muslim then there is no need to think about terms like secularism.

I have been following this thread since beggining but i didn't feel need to indulge in discussion for two reasons.first members like Strain2,Shahzaib abbasi,Usman khalid and you are doing good job.( sorry to say Fatima but i feel little contradiction in your previous and new posts.in your previous posts i found you tilted towards secularism.anyways thats an other topic).second i cannot make such long posts. in my view this is endless and useless debate whether Jinnah wanted a secular or Islamic state because for the last 60 years this issue has not been resolved nor it is going to be.the war of words between so-called secularists and Islamists will continue and none will succeed in convincing other.

I wonder why we give so much importance to this issue after all Jinnah was a human.if Jinnah's statements are so much important then suppose if it is proved that Jinnah wanted a secular Pakistan will Pakistan then be a secular state or vice versa??Oh come on!! this is not going to happen.this is where we lack practicality and this is a fact no matter how much we deny it.we are in habbit of uttering empty words than taking any concrete action.we give so much importance to the statement of a human but have we ever thought what kind of state does Allah wants for Muslims and which is proved?? definately an ideal Islamic state.So isn't better that we try to realise our dream and duty of creating and ideal Islamic state into reality or do we still need to waste another 60 years over this debate?the first step towards this goal is to follow Islam completely in our own lives and this is what Islam demands.implement Islamic shariah in your own life first then collectively on state level.

Ohhh this has become my longest post on the forum.Thanks Fatima mera record turwa diya aap ne.

The first thing is Jazib Roomi, as Shahzaib says, he never said that to me. When you are not sure of something, its better to ask because no one has any cure for presumptions. Plus, I am sure you overlooked all the posts that were thanked by him. Again, no one can force you to see the dougnut when you just wanna focus on the hole.(that too which never existed)

I know very well what I wrote. And since your post gave me a good feeler of how well you had grasped me, I had clearly written it twice Shariah (or Revealed Sources) = Quran + Sunnah. Care to read that. For a beginner like you, I iterate Sunnah is not a revealed source, but since whatever Prophet (P.B.U.H) did derived its inspiration from this divine source, thats why it is considered one.

Had you pointed out that usul-al fiqh mistake (after researching), I would have felt glad but since you are beating around the bush here so let me say, its not problem with my words, its just a little problem with your perception.

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"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

@fatima
why are you so reluctant to recognize the the merits of the modern socio political system called secularism ???

what is difference between the orthodox , fanatic muslim minds and you ???

i would appreciate a cool tempered reply rather than your instinctive style of offensive answers...

waiting.........

You know, I know, we all know about our religion. Then why on earth do we judge it by the enforcement of Shariah that we have in KSA or the one we have had in Afghanistan? To be honest, I have already made an extremely lengthy post as regards to how we all are living in a bubble when we talk about Islamic State on Pattern of Prophet (P.B.U.H) or that of the rightly guided Caliphs. There is one thing you call theory and when it comes to theory, everything is perfect. When it comes to contemporary world, things are quite different and complicated.

Since you mentioned it so I find it better to clarify things.

Still, I ask you where was it that I tilted towards secularsim (the theoretical or the practical concept)? Enlighten me and I'll be grateful.

I was never dragging in Jinnah or Iqbal. I myself had explained my views in depth and I thought that I wont turn up again but since I found a member distorting certain facts of Islamic history so that paved the way for my further posts.

May I ask a simple question? Do you have any road map for establishing this ideal Islamic state?

You are always welcome sister.

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"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Bhai meray, kindly go and reread my post where I have taken EU as an example and explained how an Islamic Union is possible. Plus, care to see my post to Jazib where I have explained what made people turn to secularism. Unfortuantely most of us who claim not to follow mullahs, have adopted the same attitude.

The difference is that fanatics hear something from a maulvi and believe it to be true, like you have been doing lately (in my opinion).

I take that as a compliment. The problem is that I really cant do anything about people who have fragile ego. Plus, I am trying to stick to topic but when I find someone is trying to put words in my mouth, then I believe there is nothing bad in being straightforward.

One last thing, if one fails to grasp something, one should ask rather than trying to prove something else, after all expressing ignorance is also half ilm.

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"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

A muslim should be a role model as he has to preach the will of Allah SWT
by presenting his qualities and attracting the people...

I am afraid that with this kinda behavior how can you ever attract the non believers towards the goodness of our religion...

i am asking one thing you are replying with an other....
more importantly the taunting style of your response is repellent not attractive at all.


a secular is not fanatic he does listen to the molives and any one else with change in his ideas , he accepts the meaningful changes also.. but molvies hate to even talk with him.....

the shortcomings of EU are in front of us yet you are exemplifying it for uniting muslm umah.

You guys are still stuck in the ideas of organizing and expanding the potential towards development in the world while the rest of the world has left you far beyond as they have implemented their ideas decades ago.....

if you want to reject the idea of secularism (step towards change) offer your logical reasons pls..

here i do not mean the faulty culture of the west by secularism nor do i mean to isolate Islam from the political setup.

apart from these points of your contradiction i want to know what else you perceive ill in secularism and why should we not move ahead with new vistas of life ???

And a Muslim should not presume as well. Period.

In most of your posts, you were not asking. You were trying to bring me to a point of yours which unfortunately was not valid. I have been discussing on this thread for quite a time now, how many of the members (other than you) found my posts taunting? But I can tell you that you were presuming about Jazib Roomi that he turned up to provoke sectarianism. So boiling it down to one sentence, when you make wrong presumptions, people are gonna justify their stand.


Dont find it worth a comment.

If there are so many shortcomings of EU, why is it still in existence?

Bhai meray, I can bet that you didnt reread my post and just picked EU and posted another question. I have explained the whole issue in very detail. Kindly read that and then post any questions.



For that, give me example of a perfect secular state. I said before and I say it again, things are perfect when it comes to theory, but quite complicated when it comes to contemporary world.

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"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

@ Fatima47

Well fatima you are not getting me.we don't judge religion by enforcement of shariah that we have in KSA or had in Afghanistan.infact we should not judge it on these basis.

as about your earlier posts,leave it.i don't want to start another debate.

i agree that things are quite different and complicated in contemporary world but who have made them so?? we are responsible for that.but it does not mean that we stop hoping for good and trying to improve things.

I am a firm believer in reforming ourselves before anything else and then many problems will be resolved.we people make a state and any road map for establishing an ideal Islamic state will begin with us.in return i would like you to tell me why we call the state of Madina during Holy prophet's period an ideal Islamic state?

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"Our affairs r attached to the destiny decreed by Allah even our best plans may lead us to destruction.Ali(a.s)

Got ya already. I was talking about the general criterion for judging Islam.

Its never a debate for me. Its a simple discussion where our views have to be backed by logic. I and Shahzaib, though advocates of same concept, have difference of opinion when it comes to achieving the goal and there is nothing bad in it. Plus, I can bet on it that I was never tilted towards secular or democracy. I have explained how these things are linked with Islam to a certain extent thats all.

The state of Medina was ideal first because for most of what Prophet (P.B.U.H) did, he had the divine guidance. It was an ideal state because it had been established by people who were trained by Allah's Messenger (P.B.U.H). It was an ideal state because Allah, after this state had been established, had laid down how the relationship of a person to person and that of a person to a state had to be governed. It was an ideal state in terms of tolerance and respect for other communities. I, being a student of History, can go on and on but the ones I mentioned above are the key features.

Tell you what, I dont have a problem with that. But lets assume that you have reformed yourself in next 5 years, what are you gonna do then? You'll go on reforming other people, fine. There are more than a billion Muslims in world, how are you and other scholars going to reform everyone? Who is here to say that Allah's hudud is different for different sects? Which sect says that usury is not haram? Sister, we are technically at war with Allah and His Prophet (P.B.U.H) as has been rightly mentioned in Quran and Sunnah. Since we are living in a highly polarized world, we need to realize that we have to look at broader concepts. We need to realize that if we keep banging our heads with beliefs, we are not gonna end up anywhere(I hope no one is gonna twist my words here). I know this is how the first state of Medina was established but tell you what, we have not inherited time of Prophet (P.B.U.H). I personally believe that no unnatural and repressive system has any place in Islam. The moment we try to make a union focussing on broader concepts (like defence, same currency, common foreign polict etc), we'll see the change coming through.

This is one lengthy post that I made. The only reason I am posting it again for you is to show how things are like when it comes to contemporary world.


Now if at all you find that I was supporting secularism somewhere then do let me know.

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"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Ok if i agree that you never tilted towards secularism not even democracy then i will have to say your own views about what should be an ideal islamic state and Islamic shariah mixed up because in your view the ideal state of Holy Prophet(PBUH) times is not possible in contemporary times but with some changes.

If state of Madina was ideal because it was established by people who were trained by messenger of Allah then don't we have such guidance in the form of Holy Quran and Sunnah?this guidance is for all ages to come not for that period alone.Can't the terms like tolerance and respect for other communities adopted in contemporary world?

we think as contemporary times are changed so we cannot implement Islamic shariah as it was during Holy prophet's time and it is impossible to reform and unite a billion plus Muslims of the world.the fact is that we are hiding behind excuses.when we are reluctant to take the very first step how we will be able to accomplish much bigger task.Do you think the challenge faced by Holy Prophet was easier than ours? but he accomplished it with the help of Allah so can we.

I agree with Pureapak that A muslim should be a role model as he has to preach the will of Allah SWT by presenting his qualities and attracting the people.this is also what islam says or Holy prophet (PBUH) did practically.so first we need to come to ourselves then on much bigger level like state or Ummah level. i agree with your view about modern advanced state but would it be without any problem?Yes Islam is a flexible religion but also strict at the same time.What if the laws made by people on local level according to their customs come into conflict with Islamic shariah?

You are right that we have objective resolution and constitution which if followed in letter and spirit will resolve 99% problems.here lies the real problem that we lack practicality and same is the case with Islamic state.we are in habbit of pointing out problems but we don't even try to solve those problems by uniting.when times come to take action we just shy away or make excuses.

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"Our affairs r attached to the destiny decreed by Allah even our best plans may lead us to destruction.Ali(a.s)