Serial killers, do not kill for fun or they drive perverted pleasure out of killing people. They are mentally deranged. A better solution is counselling, ensuring mental hygiene. These people need pyschological advice rather, that punitive action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniyalahmed Wrong interpretation and presentation of facts @ invincible. USA, Japan and China are not the best countries. They might be the biggest economies, but they are not the ideal countries to look upto. A better tool is to see the Human Development Index, standard of living index etc. The Scandinavian countries like Denmark, Sweden have always fared better then US or China, they were the first countries to prohibit capital punishment. Now, coming back to your query. In US 18 states have already abolished capital punishment, 32 other states still retain capital punishment. However, the number of states abolishing capital punishment is on the rise. States in US, which have prohibited capital punishment. Alaska (1957) Connecticut (2012)1 Hawaii (1957) Illinois (2011) Iowa (1965) Maine (1887) Maryland (2013)1 Massachusetts (1984)2 Michigan (1846) Minnesota (1911) New Jersey (2007) New Mexico (2009)1 New York (2007)2 North Dakota (1973) Rhode Island (1984) Vermont (1964) West Virginia (1965) Wisconsin (1853) As seen, conneticut was the last state, that abolished capital punishment in 2012. China, has a poor human rights record, it's still a poor third world country. China, may have an economy of 9 trillion dollars, but it's purchasing power parity is only 6000 dollars. It means that China is still developing. It is not a fully functional democracy. It has communist party in power. Hence, China cannot be used as a defense ploy in support of capital punishment. It's an evolving country, and yet, to attain the status of a developed country. Japan has a very limited number of capital punishment, which are progressively decreasing. The trend is against capital punishment and not in it's favor. Majority of the countries have shunned capital punishment. But, unfortunately in Pakistan, we defend capital punishment.

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You cant deny the fact death penalty is still being carried out in USA, UAE, China, Japan etc despite of their vast economic development where as Pakistan has been observing moratorium on the death penalty since 2008. It is very strange that we can go to war as a tool & kill thousands of innocent people but when it comes to executing a prisoner, a person who has committed a terrible crime, here we go soft on the idea. Appalling!

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniyalahmed Serial killers, do not kill for fun or they drive perverted pleasure out of killing people. They are mentally deranged. A better solution is counselling, ensuring mental hygiene. These people need pyschological advice rather, that punitive action.

& What if that killer is proven to be mentally fit by Psychiatrists? He deserves to be awarded Capital Punishment then? Don't forget; mostly homicide is committed with mens rea & Crime is inevitable in any Society.

Its a wrong notion that people commit horrendous crimes due to any unfitness. First of all It is imperative to know that Why people commit crime; answer is given in Criminology which gives important theories to enlightens us such as:-

Rational choice theory: People generally act in their self-interest and make decisions to commit crime after weighing the potential risks (including getting caught and punished) against the rewards.


Strain theory: Most people have similar aspirations, but they don’t all have the same opportunities or abilities. When people fail to achieve society’s expectations through approved means such as hard work and delayed gratification, they may attempt to achieve success through crime.

Social learning theory: People develop motivation to commit crime and the skills to commit crime through the people they associate with.

Regards,

__________________
When you try, you risk failure. When you don’t try, you ensure it.

Human beings are evolving. In ancient times, people like Taimburlaine, Genghiz Khan and even Babur, arranged pyramids made of human skulls. They used terror as a tool to enslave people. Today, with the creation of United Nations, wars have been curtailed. Yes, isolated incidents of warfare do occur, but they are generally limited and atrocities are controlled. You, may refer to Iraq, Afghanistan etc. but these wars are limited in scale. Humans learn, they reform.

Current use

1. Afghanistan
2. Bahamas
3. Belarus
4. Botswana
5. China
6.Cuba
7. Egypt
8.Guatemala
9.India
10. Indonesia
11. Iran
12.Iraq
13.Japan
14.North Korea
15.South Korea
16.Lebanon
17.Malaysia
18.Pakistan
19.Saudi Arabia
20. Singapore
21.Somalia
22.Suriname
23. Syria
24. Taiwan
25. Tajikistan
26. Tonga
27.United Arab Emirates
28. United States (in most states)
29. Vietnam
30. Yemen

Past use
1.Australia
2.Austria
3.Belgium
4.Bhutan
5.Brazil
6.Bulgaria
7.Canada
8.Cyprus
9. Denmark
10. Ecuador
11.France
12.Germany
13.Gibraltar
14.Hong Kong
15.Hungary
16.Ireland
17.Israel
18.Italy
19.Liechtenstein
20.Macau
21.Mexico
22.Mongolia
23.Netherlands
24.New Zealand
25.Norway
26.Philippines
27.Poland
28.Portugal
29.Romania
30.Russia (indef. suspended)
31.San Marino
32.Serbia
33. South Africa
34.Spain
35.Sweden
36.Switzerland
37.Turkey
38.Ukraine
39.fUnited Kingdom
40. Venezuela

Majority of the developed world has already shunned capital punishment, only a few retain it, as highlighted.

They are

1. China
2.B]Japan[/B]
3..United Arab Emirates
4. United States (in most states)
5[B]South Korea

China, UAE have poor human rights record. They are not part of first world countries. State oppression is common in China. If you just look into the human development index, china and UAE will fare very low on it.

US is already abolishing capital punishment. Already, 18 states have ended capital punishment. Japan is also reducing capital punishment. In fact, there is a lot of debate in Japan about Capital Punishment. Also, in Japan, capital punishment is only reserved for murder and treason.

I quote wikipedia's article to show, that there is tremendous pressure on law makers and ministers to resist capital punishment.

"During the late 1980s, four acquittals of longtime death-row inmates after retrial greatly embarrassed the Ministry of Justice, whose officials sincerely believed that such mistakes by the system were almost impossible.[1] Between 1989 and 1993, four successive ministers of justice refused to authorise executions, which amounted to an informal moratorium. Until then, the groups campaigning to end capital punishment were marginal but they coalesced into a single umbrella organisation called Forum 90. Unlike in the U.S., where a state's governor can issue a pardon for any state crime and the president can pardon a federal crime, in Japan, the justice minister has to sign death warrants. It is not uncommon for a justice minister not to sign death warrants, some for political or religious convictions, others for personal dislike for signing death warrants. This has caused some debate in Japan, some[citation needed] accusing those justice ministers of neglecting their public duty. For example, Seiken Sugiura, Minister of Justice between October 2005 and September 2006, and a follower of Pureland Buddhism, publicly stated on 31 October 2005 that he would not sign execution warrants. He said that "From the standpoint of the theory of civilisations, I believe that the general trend from a long-term perspective will be to move toward abolition." A few hours later, he retracted the statement, saying it represented his "feelings as an individual and (the comment) was not made in relation to the duties and responsibilities of a justice minister who must oversee the legal system". However, he never agreed to any executions as a minister of justice"

US, Japan are showing a trend, of increased regard of human life. They are reducing capital punishment systematically. I don't regard China or even UAE as first world countries. UAE has nothing but a bubble economy, based on Oil revenue. It has no solid fundamentals. Also, immigrant workers are treated in inhuman manner, all is recorded. Dubai is nightmare for laborers. So, please drag "useless" countries like UAE, which are nothing, which have no values, no legal system and no rights for "humans".

Your entire argument is flawed, extremely childish and based on your belief system. You believe that as Islam enjoins capital punishment, it is necessary to ensure all people are hanged by the noose. you forget, that criminals are failures of society. When a society fails, a criminal is created. Rather then improving society, you conveniently kill people.

Rational choice theory: People generally act in their self-interest and make decisions to commit crime after weighing the potential risks (including getting caught and punished) against the rewards.

This shows your absolutely limited knowledge of rational choices. Rational choices means that individuals, take decision by weighing their options. The one, with the least risk is opted. However, your argument is flawed on two counts.

1. Rationality is formed and nurtured by education / experience. Education allows secondary experience through reading etc. Rationality without education is limited. An illiterate person, with little knowledge of social repercurssions of murder will easily, commit crime, whereas an educated person, will realize the import of his actions. He will weigh it, in all possible manner. Remember, that rationality is not inborn, it's acquired. If humans were born rational, then there would not have been cannibalist barbarians. Humans have evolved, they have learnt that cannibalism is dangerous. As a result, through education, castigation and social pressure, cannibalism has been eradicated. Education provide a whole new dimension to rationality.

2. Mentally deranged people, are not rational, hence, this theory fails.

crimeStrain theory: Most people have similar aspirations, but they don’t all have the same opportunities or abilities. When people fail to achieve society’s expectations through approved means such as hard work and delayed gratification, they may attempt to achieve success through crime .

What is this supposed to mean? Success is achieved through hard work? wrong. What about inheritance, where people don't work nor delay gratification, but still achieve a lot of wealth? So, the problem, lies with society and not with the individual. If right of inheritance was denied, this problem would not have arisen. again, flawed theory and totally out of context.

Social learning theory: People develop motivation to commit crime and the skills to commit crime through the people they associate with.

one word ludicrous.

Current methods
Decapitation Electrocution Firing squad Gas chamber Hanging Lethal injection Stoning

Past methods
Blowing from a gun Boiling Breaking wheel Burning Crucifixion Crushing Disembowelment Dismemberment Drawing and quartering Elephant Flaying Garrote Immurement Impalement Mazzatello Premature burial Sawing Scaphism Slow slicing Suffocation.

Source wikipedia.

See, modern methods got more humane. Boiling, elephant flaying were common in ancient days, but in modern world, more humans methods are being devised. This is a logical chain, which will culminate, with the end of capital punishment.

See for yourself, majority of the world, has already said NO to capital punishment. Only a few countries, that encourage oppression retain it.

I appreciate the weight of arguments made by Daniyal, however I'd like to add or discuss,

If we abolish capital punishment and continue with life imprisonment for few years for killing/treason, criminal minded people will never stop, they know within our system they can break life imprisonment into few years sentence and eventually they are out.

I don't say we should continue Capital Punishment yet to develop a society, we have to tell them that there are few boundries which should not be crossed like killing/bombing/rape etc, just to scare people we ought to have continue a fair system of punishment, a severe punishment.

Developing an economy in order to develop a Society takes time, till Government can't abandon all its major punishments, what other options we have? Yes let's introduce few other type of punishments as substitute.

Cheers,

__________________
'Never think that God's delays are God's denials. Hold on; hold fast; hold out. Patience is genius!

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniyalahmed Human beings are evolving. In ancient times, people like Taimburlaine, Genghiz Khan and even Babur, arranged pyramids made of human skulls. They used terror as a tool to enslave people. Today, with the creation of United Nations, wars have been curtailed. Yes, isolated incidents of warfare do occur, but they are generally limited and atrocities are controlled. You, may refer to Iraq, Afghanistan etc. but these wars are limited in scale. Humans learn, they reform.

Dude, The ongoing War on Terror has cost $1283 billion and has left between 227000 and 300000 dead so far. What an evolution!

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniyalahmed They are 1. China 2.B]Japan

Is Pakistan in any way better than these Countries that people like you are making hue & cry to abandon Death Penalty? Certainly not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniyalahmed Your entire argument is flawed, extremely childish and based on your belief system. You believe that as Islam enjoins capital punishment, it is necessary to ensure all people are hanged by the noose. you forget, that criminals are failures of society. When a society fails, a criminal is created. Rather then improving society, you conveniently kill people.

Stand corrected, man. Though I am very much comfortable with Islamic injunctions, haven't quoted any point from Islam in this whole argument yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniyalahmed Rational choice theory: People generally act in their self-interest and make decisions to commit crime after weighing the potential risks (including getting caught and punished) against the rewards. This shows your absolutely limited knowledge of rational choices. Rational choices means that individuals, take decision by weighing their options. The one, with the least risk is opted. However, your argument is flawed on two counts. 1. Rationality is formed and nurtured by education / experience. Education allows secondary experience through reading etc. Rationality without education is limited. An illiterate person, with little knowledge of social repercurssions of murder will easily, commit crime, whereas an educated person, will realize the import of his actions. He will weigh it, in all possible manner. Remember, that rationality is not inborn, it's acquired. If humans were born rational, then there would not have been cannibalist barbarians. Humans have evolved, they have learnt that cannibalism is dangerous. As a result, through education, castigation and social pressure, cannibalism has been eradicated. Education provide a whole new dimension to rationality.

Don't try to pretend as Social scientist No one is denying the importance of Education but it is not the only tool that can make people crime-averse. See the list of countries with highest reported crimes & try to perceive other dynamics.

Countries with highest reported crimes:-

1.United States
2.United Kingdom
3.Germany
4.France
5.Russia
6.Japan
7.South Africa
8Canada
9.Italy
10.India

Mostly countries( mentioned above) have 90 plus literacy rate. Why do have highest crime rate then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniyalahmed crimeStrain theory: Most people have similar aspirations, but they don’t all have the same opportunities or abilities. When people fail to achieve society’s expectations through approved means such as hard work and delayed gratification, they may attempt to achieve success through crime . What is this supposed to mean? Success is achieved through hard work? wrong. What about inheritance, where people don't work nor delay gratification, but still achieve a lot of wealth? So, the problem, lies with society and not with the individual. If right of inheritance was denied, this problem would not have arisen. again, flawed theory and totally out of context.

You are not good in reading between the lines. This theory means people do have innate desire to make money. Some toil to get through legitimate means whereas some want to make it EasyPaisa with out any Labor by committing crimes.


Conclusion:- We should leave no stone unturned to integrate Equal rights, peace, freedom and justice in our society by not forgetting Evil on Earth. Capital punishment must be remained statutory for Terrorism, Murder, Gang rape and Treason.

__________________
When you try, you risk failure. When you don’t try, you ensure it.

Two wrongs don't make a right. War on terror is being waged for different reason, it's a totally different topic, scope of which is not in the purview of this discussion. Human life is sacred, it should be protected at all costs. I am not justifying war on terror, if war on terror is wrong, so is capital punishment - both for the simple reason of human cost. You cannot justify capital punishment, apparently because, more people have died during war on terror. It's illogical, ludicrous and fallacy ridden argument.

By dragging, war on terror, what are you implying? confusing topic? Please stick to the topic under discussion. What has war on terror, got to do with the discussion at hand? I am bamboozled.

Please clarify, what are you implying? I can only say one thing, you cannot compare apples with oranges. So, your first point is totally illogical.

As far as the context is concerned. Human societies are evolving. We have invented remedies like penicillin that prevent growth of bacteria, we have made major break through in medical science. We are getting better by the day. Herbert Spencer, a renowned sociologist also pointed out, that societies are evolving. With trial and error, we are learning from past mistakes. We are improving and progressing. Wars have ceased to be bloody affairs. Only 2 lac 27,000 people have died within a decade. A single raid of Genghis Khan was worth 100,000 lives. Hence, we can safely conclude, that barbarity is being curtailed. We have international multi - lateral institutions, that prevent warfare. The problem with UN is that there is uni - polar world, with a very strong super power in the form of US. Once, countries like China and Russia catch up, we will see a more important role of UN. It's just a matter of time, before the world ushers into an era of universal peace. Please, don't be nihilist.

Unfortunately, the theory of punishment, were created from scriptures. The concept of original sin and subsequent punishment of adam and eve, created a myth that humans being are innately unworthy of doing any good. Hence, they are to be reformed through punishment. Even god banished adam from garden of eden, because he had sinned and as a consequence, he had to suffer in this world. From, there this stems the theory that punishment is the only cure for sin.

From education, I dont mean academic education. From education, I mean ethics, code of conduct, how to behave and how to curtail desire. This is education. Rational expectation theory means, that people make choices, the one that suits them is opted, the one that doesn't suit is left out. By education, you increase the "cost" associated with a course of action.

I am not your ill wisher, otherwise, I would have prayed, that you have first hand experience of our legal/judicial and law enforcement system. Right from the lodging of FIR, to hearing, this system is corrupt. Someone said in this forum, that we have loopholes in our legal system, for that we have to strengthen our legal system, rather then abolishing capital punishment. My response is, for god sake, till your legal system is not perfect, you cannot appropriate a life of any person. A flawed system is likely to take the life of an innocent person, which you are unwilling or unable to understand. Allah says in quaran, If anyone takes a life, without a reason, it is as if, he has killed the entire mankind. Only exception is in the course of law. But in our legal system, people simply do not get justice. Hence, taking life in the name of justice, without having any essence of justice, is both incorrect, naive and stupid.

I again summarize.

1. Pakistan legal system is so corrupt, you cannot even imagine. From the filing of FIR, to hearing of cases, the entire process is painstaking and corrupt to the core. In this corrupt system, innocent people are hanged. First get your system right, then enforce a heinous punishment, like capital punishment. Otherwise, accept your flawed, corrupt and inefficient judicial system and abolish capital punishment. In this way, you will prevent innocent people from dying. Also, by abolishing capital punishment countless people who have been victims of draconian laws like Hudood ordinace and Blasphemy law, would get reprieve.

2. Respect Human life. Ensure all means to save human life. By killing a murderer, you prevent him with a chance to redeem himself and reform.

stop mixing child psychology with adult psychology. A child is always positively reinforced because he is in learning stage of his life moreover topic is capital punishment and a juvenile is already immune to such punishment by our "flawed" law.
Positive reinforcement is done at an early age to deter crime tendencies it has little effect on a grown up man.
A human life is given great stature in islam which regards killing a human being equal to killing whole humanity and such a massive crime doesnot deserve a chance. There should always be some "red lines' in society which if crossed should lead to "targeted damage".

this is an ideal example of pouring scorn on universal truth. societies where a person is punished even on misbehaving with a dog give people who respect animals this should be enough a prove.

__________________
And Allah Knows, while you know not. (Al-Quran)