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  #21  
Old Saturday, July 26, 2014
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The change that 'we think' has come is only 'urbanization' which has brought those same 'old attitudes' to urban environments, in a way creating 'urban feudalism'.
The change of thinking due to 'urbanization, internet and the 'media' have indeed changed people's minds and now they are no longer as dogmatic and intolerant as before. Now everyone really feels that we need to move out of agrarian style of life and change medieval style of thinking, now they don't resist industrialization and study science and welcome it's discoveries (even though they don't understand it and still seek confirmation of faith from science ). But I still have doubts it is all working towards establishing a democracy...
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  #22  
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There you go, now the fuehrer baghdadi will wipe out every jew from the face of earth and 're-distribute' all the wealth to the needy and poor heil baghdadi
Only Baghdadi can put Muslim Ummah in order. Heil Baghdadi.
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  #23  
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@Aaqib Javed:
That was very nicely explained, I must say. Industrialization is anyway inevitable. And the kind of "Islamic system" concepts we have in mind can only work in the medieval ages and feudal societies. In an industrial and modern society, such systems can only reside in confused heads.
Thank you sir for the positive remark. I value your opinion very highly. About the bold lines: It's a very apt conclusion that you have drawn. The way, how many of our friends resort to "Islamic System" for all ills, compares well to Ostrich Effect. Burying their heads in the Sands of Hijaz and hoping for the best.

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About this highlighted point, I just wanted to ask what desired change are you aiming at here?
It would be best if we do not aim for anything at all. Just teach them the truth and ways to find it and let it happen whatever changes in result.
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Gypsified (Saturday, July 26, 2014)
  #24  
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But I still have doubts it is all working towards establishing a democracy...
Well, we all have have doubts about that. Obviously the transition will not be smooth and we have a lot of problems in store for us. All we can do is wait and see and hope that the change that has been triggered continues to move in the right direction. And if, along the way, the public opinion is swept by a rambling demagogue then the opinion of a few nuts talking about democracy won't matter anyway.
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mhmmdkashif (Sunday, July 27, 2014)
  #25  
Old Sunday, July 27, 2014
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Well, we all have have doubts about that. Obviously the transition will not be smooth and we have a lot of problems in store for us. All we can do is wait and see and hope that the change that has been triggered continues to move in the right direction. And if, along the way, the public opinion is swept by a rambling demagogue then the opinion of a few nuts talking about democracy won't matter anyway.
Promotion of collectivism was perhaps started by ZAB, and ever since it has become a norm to play 'politics of the poor and the workers' in this country. However collectivism has deep roots in Islamic teachings as well as tribal norms, thus both the conservative and supposedly 'moderate' political parties are very keen not try to touch those values at social political and economic level. However for the multi ethnic and multi cultural environment of Pakistan, collectivism proves disastrous for the economy and serves to promote political tensions, corruption, nepotism, ethnicism, bradar-ism and all kinds of problems that we face. It has been a source of political challenge for all the democratic governments who come to power, and eventually promotes militarism/jihadist ideals and expansionist/defensive (fear of Jewish-Hindu aggression amidst disorder ) ideals in the society which provide military with an opportunity to seize power. However during musharraf era those values were touched, to a limited extent by deliberate state policy (Roshan khayali aur aetdal pasandi) but largely by the 'global village' and the media. As a result, politicians soon realized old political tactics are no longer useful and promotion of 'division along ethnic, sectarian, biradari' lines was suspended, but the collectivist values still persisted and today we have a society which is considering enormous 'wealth gap' as a problem. It wants to snatch the money out of the rich and drag 'rich politicians' on the streets, giving rise to organized crime and all kinds of economic evils (hoarding, drug selling, bhatta mafia, prostitution, kidnappings etc). Interesting thing to note is we had these things before as well but they were working for the political parties or feudal politicians, however today they largely seem to be working for the Islamic militants. It again poses challenge to the economy and shaking investors confidence. And again we have demagogues in the ground making promises (of a welfare state) and destabilizing incumbent governments, and institutional confusion is also there. The only thing that has changed is the military is in no political position to take over, and the state is virtually helpless to control the situation. These remain the problems. The big question in my mind is suppose even if Pakistan army defeat Islamic militants, will it change anything towards betterment of 'democratic culture' or the army, again, will convert the newly found popularity gained through defeating militants into political reality and stage a coup??? And if it does coup, what will be the result??? Perhaps such will be the challenges for the few who want support democracy, will they protect it 'at all costs'
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  #26  
Old Sunday, July 27, 2014
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But you won't need to bring radical administrative changes in the economic (and other) institutions. You won't need to bring critical changes in your foreign trade and economic relations with other countries. You won't need to realign your position in international economic treaties and conventions. And this all with our status as a third world country. None of this pain in the neck is required for democracy.

And even after all this, do we have a clearly defined road map that can tell us how it would effect us, in the 21st century, at each and every stage? We do have that democracy. Do we have any example of a modern state who eliminated interest and continued to develop? No, we don't. But we do have scores of such examples for democracy. Hollow assumptions and theoretical bragging is what interest-free economy is.



There are several major ones and then more sub-categories. You can read about them on the internet. But if there is any specific matter related to the discussion at hand, you can post it here.

@Aaqib Javed:

That was very nicely explained, I must say. Industrialization is anyway inevitable. And the kind of "Islamic system" concepts we have in mind can only work in the medieval ages and feudal societies. In an industrial and modern society, such systems can only reside in confused heads.
ok. define development? and give me an example of a developed economy.
yes zero interest needs re institutionalization but why would you say that it will affect trade?
why do you say that "islamic system" concepts residing in confusing minds like me can't work for industrialization and modern society. what is 'modern' by the way? please give specific differences between modern and medieval.
regards
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  #27  
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Promotion of collectivism was perhaps started by ZAB, and ever since it has become a norm to play 'politics of the poor and the workers' in this country. However collectivism has deep roots in Islamic teachings as well as tribal norms, thus both the conservative and supposedly 'moderate' political parties are very keen not try to touch those values at social political and economic level. However for the multi ethnic and multi cultural environment of Pakistan, collectivism proves disastrous for the economy and serves to promote political tensions, corruption, nepotism, ethnicism, bradar-ism and all kinds of problems that we face. It has been a source of political challenge for all the democratic governments who come to power, and eventually promotes militarism/jihadist ideals and expansionist/defensive (fear of Jewish-Hindu aggression amidst disorder ) ideals in the society which provide military with an opportunity to seize power. However during musharraf era those values were touched, to a limited extent by deliberate state policy (Roshan khayali aur aetdal pasandi) but largely by the 'global village' and the media. As a result, politicians soon realized old political tactics are no longer useful and promotion of 'division along ethnic, sectarian, biradari' lines was suspended, but the collectivist values still persisted and today we have a society which is considering enormous 'wealth gap' as a problem. It wants to snatch the money out of the rich and drag 'rich politicians' on the streets, giving rise to organized crime and all kinds of economic evils (hoarding, drug selling, bhatta mafia, prostitution, kidnappings etc). Interesting thing to note is we had these things before as well but they were working for the political parties or feudal politicians, however today they largely seem to be working for the Islamic militants. It again poses challenge to the economy and shaking investors confidence. And again we have demagogues in the ground making promises (of a welfare state) and destabilizing incumbent governments, and institutional confusion is also there. The only thing that has changed is the military is in no political position to take over, and the state is virtually helpless to control the situation. These remain the problems. The big question in my mind is suppose even if Pakistan army defeat Islamic militants, will it change anything towards betterment of 'democratic culture' or the army, again, will convert the newly found popularity gained through defeating militants into political reality and stage a coup??? And if it does coup, what will be the result??? Perhaps such will be the challenges for the few who want support democracy, will they protect it 'at all costs'
TL;DR Democracy will not work. A Muslim Hitler is the only inevitable solution
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  #28  
Old Monday, July 28, 2014
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TL;DR Democracy will not work. A Muslim Hitler is the only inevitable solution
Perhaps you should mind teasing now, the truth may not always satisfy your wishes. If i am wrong convince me with your own theories and supporting evidence. very essence of democracy is listen to others as well maybe they have some genuine thoughts. If you are not following democratic principles yourself then you should stop being a molana of democracy. Heil hitler.
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  #29  
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Perhaps you should mind teasing now, the truth is not just what you wish it to be. The very essence of democracy is listen to others as well maybe they have some genuine thoughts. If you are not following democratic principles yourself then you should stop being a molana of democracy. Heil hitler.
I just summarized the genuine thoughts you wrote. You should write this tagline under every piece of writing you write. By the way can you think of any society which works without collectivism?
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I just summarized the genuine thoughts you wrote. You should write this tagline under every piece of writing you write. By the way can you think of any society which works without collectivism?
Am I wrong to point out Pakistanis are expecting collectivism??? The very constitution of this country promote collectivism and not competition. The evidence is right in your quota system of css.
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