It is really dismal to see the frame of mind of our young generation. I’ve been observing the threads of this forum since last few months and concluded that many aspirants of CSS/PCS and even Mukhtiarkar are already placed at good position drawing handsome salaries such as officers in State Bank and Section Officers etc. But the question which is really pinching me that why they are interested in becoming the KAMDARS of waderas as DDOs and Mukhtiarkars. If they really want to serve the nation (very common justification provided by civil servants) than why they can’t serve the nation from their present position. According to my analysis the only persuading factor for them to swith over to another job is big time CORRUPTION. We should admit that we have corrupt frame of mind which has been pushing us to work really hard to have an operational post like DDO and ignore good salaried positions we are acquiring at the moment. Viewing the case in the said context, we criticize people at public service commission not to involve in corrupt practices by eroding merit but on the other hand we are sharpening our teeth to involve in the same practice once the opportunity is thrown to us. We all are corrupt but pretend to be a true loyalist of the nation and claim big to serve it. Lets admit this fact and stop being hypocrats.


I am not excluding myself from above observations

Regards

@ Baba Khan:
Salams.....
I m surprised on ur observations drawn & generalized by u. I will give my own input here for fellow members to show other side of story....

First of all, let me honestly tell u that not all people joining civil service are intrested in becoming the Kamdars of Waderas as DDOs & Mukhtiarkar... No matter how big a Wadera is, He still needs helping hand & protection from DDO/DCO/Mukhtiarkar & not to forget SHO/DPO... the deal always involves 'give' n 'take from both parties..

Moreover, U must not generalise ur observation here, as not everyone joining Civil Service opts it with mind of minting illegal money... a good number of officer abhor black money....

As for question of "people from State Bank/ Section Officer switching there jobs to become Kamdars" is concerned, I (being a Section Officer myself) have opted for switching service to have better career in civil service... the things like 'lateral entries' & 'delayed promotions' are factors behind my decision of attempting CSS... I will have same salary in any group, I get... Our constitution gives every citizen 'freedom of Occupation', so a person from State bank has same right to serve nation by switching job, as any ordinary candidates has...

CSS or other exams are competitive in nature, so the best ones go through, everyone has freedom to attempt it, even though some unemployed candidate would desire that those with jobs be banned, so competition is less

Serving nation is part of every civil servants duty (for that matter a person working in any private bank), but there are many other things which tempt an individual to switch a job... For example, I'v always dreamt of joining Foreign Service.... I happened to pass PCS, so do I hv no right to achieve my aim in life... Am I destined to work only in secretariat, if my services can be of better use for my nation in diplomatic service............

Motivation for working hard to some candidates may be CORRUPTION....
For majority, the motivation lies in following things:
1. Better Service Structure
2. Noo fear of lateral Entries
3. Fairly rapid & systematic promotions
4. Opportunities to serve nation in different capacities
5. to prove one's own existence, worth
6. to guide nation towards progress
MANY MANY MORE


Not everyone in civil services is corrupt, I hv many example to quote, there are many "unsung" heros who closes their fans after office timings r over (4 PM)... they bring food & even water from their houses, so not everyone is hypocrat.....

Frankly absence of merit during civil service & un-healthy pay package tempts an individual to earn money from other source... A mid-level banker in private Bank earns in laks, where as a Federal Secretary (BS-22)-Highest rank in Civil service- gets hardly Rs. 70.000... So pay is very discouraging... afterall u'v to maintain a living when ur children go to school & u pay utility bills & buy food items... Not everyone gets official residence in Karachi... would a civil servant b able to rent a one-room apartment in outskirts of KHI (Malir/Sohrab Goth etc) in House Rent of Rs. 4500/= Civil servants during the British Rule used to get handsome salary, consequently chances of Corruption were no where.... Frankly if a civil servant gets posting on merit & has constitutional protection of job (like HIGH COURT JUDGES) & guarrantee of completion of tenure for atleast three years, than all your allegations wud b no more.... Officers tend to b on good terms with politicians because only their happiness wud guarrantee continuity of their posting




Bro, pl see other side of the coin too

THANKS

__________________
You'll never walk alone

Dear,
it is not as you are thinking.You are just pointing out a portion of thinking.As i think everybody is not rushing in civil service for the purpose of money,corruption etc.Look,it is the right and wish of every person to get better position and designation in his career.i personally know some CSPs,who are just doing their jobs without earning money and corruption.waisy bhi tu kaha jat Five fingres are not equal.Social and Financial unjustice is creating thoughts in the mind of peoples,specially young generation to become powefull and get power.

I think switching from one job to another one is purely one's own prerogative.As far as corruption issue is concerned.Now it is very serious thing.This is no justification that if Mr X has indulged in corrupt practices,therefore Mr Y should also indulge.The Youth has to stand up against corruption.We sindhi youth r fully committed in eradicating corruption in all its forms and manifestations.As for our committment to serve nation is concerned,yes indeed,we r committed to make pakistan progressive and transparent to deliver public in fair manner,as public office is public trust.Now as one of the friend said that illicit motive behind joining civil services happened to be corruption.No one but Allah knows what is in the heart of person but I think we cannot generalise it,since good and honest people are also present in civil services.I think we must not live in world of passimism.As for as calling waderas as sain,etc is concerned,THESE THINGS DOES NOT SUIT THE ETHICS OF A CIVIL SERVANT.
MAY ALLAH HELP AND GUIDE U.

@ Babakhan

every now and then criticism against civil service pours in from various people. most of them turn out to be candidates who failed to make it. perhaps i have to be one of them to understand why? anyway, let's get back to the discussion.

baba khan, you proceeded on the wrong premise that an employed person only sees black money in civil service and nothing else. and that's why you reach the wrong conclusion after your analysis. it requires a particular temperament to derive satisfaction and happiness by delivering to the people through civil service. i think you don't have the frame of mind to understand civil service in that perspective. no personal offense.

f.s. has already mentioned the factors which led him to think about switching. besides that, it must be known to you that there are twelve diverse service groups in css. the most respectable entry in them is only possible through css. every state bank or pcs officer has the right to government service and IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT MONEY.

a mukhtiarkar (good corruption opportunities) given the opportunity to serve in foreign service (a corruption-free group) would most probably join the service. won't he? after all his destiny is changing. isn't it?

what i am trying to point out for you is that civil service comes with a lot of honour, prestige and ABILITY TO HELP PEOPLE.

this is the 'other side of the coin' f.s. was trying to make conspicuous to you.

your comments are welcome.

regards,

PS: css should not be equated with money. bribe comes with opportunity normally not available to all css officers.

__________________
"The race is not over because I haven't won yet."

Adil Memon
Police Service of Pakistan (P.S.P)
37th Common Training Program

@ FS & Adil

Salamzzzzzz....
well at first instance I fully support the points raised by baba khan that MAINLY people join civil services to make black money and an addition by me ---to secure POWER....
Research has shown that every human being happens to be power hungry....one wants to subdue all others by power...
Unfortunately beaurucracy in pakistan is more focused on self aggrandisement rather than help serve the community......
Can You tell me Adil and FS that can u go directly in office of DDO or DCO to put up ur matter before him???????
Have u seen any officer while he bows before any MNA and MPA to get a good post???
Do you know that if a DDO even opts for zero corruption from public ....even then he is entitled to get "kitchen expenses" from mukhtiarkar @ Rs 20000 per month ....and this goes till DCO....and to secretaries for that matter in seretariat group......
Can u deny the fact that at the end of both recovery seasoons i.e. rabi mand kharif a DDO is paid 2 lakh rupees as his rightfull portion???
Baba khan is not generalizing I think.....because here in pakistan 90% bureaucrates are corrupt..........so rather ou people are generalizing the remaining 10% brothers...

I could write many pages in this regard....bt I think its enough for you to think atleast rationally and plzzzzzz ADMIT WHAT IS TRUE.......

In fact that is the worst tract that bureaucrates develop that THEY ARE ALWAYS RIGHT.....one should be flexible enough to accept the truth....

At last this is nothing personal and its all about the systema nd society we have.....

Regards

__________________
THINK GLOBALLY //////----->>> BUT; ACT LOCALLY

Dear Baba khan & Daud DD,

As, Respecetd Fawad and Raz have already elucidate the other side of the picture which is absolutely right without any doubt.

Dear Baba, With due respect, You cant understimate the efforts and all teh hardwork of Civil Services aspirants by through your opinion. I would like to ask you couple of thing as raised by you in your initiative thread as follows:

1. Research has shown that every human being happens to be power hungry....one wants to subdue all others by power...
(Would you please let me know the source of this research?)

2. Can u deny the fact that at the end of both recovery seasoons i.e. rabi mand kharif a DDO is paid 2 lakh rupees as his rightfull portion???
(Would you please mention the name of that DDO, If its true, trust me He will be having rainy days soon)



3. Because here in pakistan 90% bureaucrates are corrupt.
(Sorry to say but these Bureaucrates are being choosen by your elected leaders)


4. I could write many pages in this regard....bt I think its enough for you to think atleast rationally and plzzzzzz ADMIT WHAT IS TRUE.......

(I am not saying you are not a good writer, but if you will write in same regards, you will be replied with best facts and figurs as been so far).

I am not only saying this, I can prove it now. you know how?

SINCE YOU RAISED THIS POINT ON THIS FORUM, YOU CAN SEE THE OPINIONS OF MOST OF THE MEMBERS SO FAR.............. (Hope you got an answer)



Thanks
Abdul wahid

(Ordinary people do extra ordinary things)

dost mujhe lagta hai ke aap eurepa main rahite ho.aap ko to yeh bhi pata nahin ke ddo 2lakh bhi kama sakta hai.hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
by the way agar awam corrupt c.s. ka kush nahin bigar sakee to kiya aap dco ho jo corrupt ddo ke rainy day shuroo honge.

walaikum salam,

Daud DD, this is not the medieval era when absolute power existed. there is nothing like unlimited power anymore. everyone in pakistan is subordinate to one or another or has adequate checks on his authority. so your analysis that people aspire for civil services for power to subdue others is a total failure. people do not tolerate oppression silently in these times.

again, you have generalized all civil servants as corrupt. you perhaps haven't ever come across an honest officer. i know many and hope to serve like one irrespective of you appreciate me or not.

then there are other civil servants who work in places where there are no corruption opportunities. so even the question of their being corrupt doesn't arise.

what is the most despicable in civil service are officers who do not do their jobs. and i join you in condemning them.

regarding entry into ddo or dco office, i think that culture is gone when the doorkeeper won't let you in. i have seen it myself that people are allowed free entry to meet officers regarding their matters.

i know a few policeman who would set up camps in open air on particular days to resolve public complaints. there are officers who do serve people.

i do not believe, a css officer, getting the job by his own competence and having constitutional protection would ever physically bow down before a mna or mpa for posting. only a person with no self-respect would agree to do that. mnas and mpas are for 5 years only. civil servants stay there. this fact is known to every mna and mpa. so the relationship is mostly on the basis of mutual respect.

this discussion is meaningless. as long as this country exist, civil service will exist. good and bad people will join it. your criticism has no end to serve.

regards,

__________________
"The race is not over because I haven't won yet."

Adil Memon
Police Service of Pakistan (P.S.P)
37th Common Training Program

Bro, I appreciate ur support for Mr. Baba Khan, but frankly instead of just writing " support you.oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ", you should hv supported cause of ur friend with due arguments, so that discussion would hv bn fruitful


First of all, It is regrettable that we (people in subcontinent) feel it our inherent right to poke our nose into someone else personal issues. Decision regarding any individual’s career is a personal matter. Such decision should not a headache for someone else.

Furthermore, its not just matter of salary bro, I'v replied it in details some of the motives for joinig civil service... for Ur convenience, I once again reproduce the same:


No body in civil services (even after qualifying CSS) is assured to reach Grade-22… Any officer’s promotion depends upon his seniority position, availability of vacancies in higher grade & his performance… People going to certain groups retire in grade-20. Moreover, Government of Pakistan has adopted a policy of “Best of BEST” for officers who are getting promotions in grade-21 & grade-22 (Highest position in civil bureaucracy). These days, all known corrupt officers are made to retire in grade-20 by deferring their promotions. If an officer’s promotion is deferred on two occasions on account of his corruption, he can not be considered for promotion in future. This is how system works……… So a wise man would comprehend that civil service is no heaven for corrupt officers……

Let the future of Pakistan tackle issues positively
Let me correct u, there are no CSPs in Pakistan any more, as this title was used for civilian officers before Civil services reforms undertaken by Zulfiqar Bhutto in 1973. NO OFFICERS USES SUCH TITLE ANYMORE)

Bro, government needs qualified officers like RAZ.. Government spends millions of rupees on education of officers during their service… RAZ can help formulate budget of Sindh, He can b team leader in Planning Commision, his experience can b effectively utilized in establishment of SINDH BANK (which Government of Sindh is presently undertaking) So Economist can still serve nation in Civil service

NOT EVERY OFFICER WAITS IN OTAQ OF WADERA… THE NUMBER OF SUCH OFFICERS CAN B COUNTED ON FINGERS… I’v already presented my view n this

HAHAHA… There can be no better joke than this… Frankly the names of such “wonderful officers” may b mentioned by my en-lighted fellow


@ Daud DD
Salams, welcome to discussion.. I would like u to read my earlier reply.. Instead of raising questions, it would have been more relevant if you & Babakhan should have logically argumented the discussion on my or Adil Memon’s post…. I will try to answer few of your questions ( I may have to raise my own questions

This is a very generalised statement, which Adil & I have replied in detail.. Some black sheep may b there whose aim is to secure power, but NOT EVERYONE… BUT IF U THINK ITS HUMAN NATURE TO SUBDUE HIS FELLOWS THAN U CAN NOT COMPLAINT A CIVIL SERVANT’S MENTALITY… (Furthermore, not every human being in this world is power hungry: IF U’V TIME, U CAN READ JJ ROUSSEAU’S THEORY OF GENERAL WILL)

Civil servants are often accused on this account, this discussion can never end… I agree that a few officer do indulge in self-promotion, but majority feel pain for nation.. such allegation can be used for politicians, our military, our clergy, & so on… the best way is that an individual civil servant should correct himself and strive that rest follow the suit……

YES… If I am morally right, no body could stop me from going directly to the office of DCO/DDO… We have to be sensible, we have to let system work, but we people want that our work should be done on priority as we hardly care for others.. This results in a jam.. it is only duty of an officer to entertain each & every person.. He has to look after other important assignments… Some of office timings is reserved for meeting with public… such timings should be observed, which should enable government machinery to function…….. It usually happens that people don’t realise the importance some one else time.. instead of entertaining people whole day, the valuable time can b utilized for betterment of people….

Bro, pl we let u to answer this question, as I’v not seen officers bowing before some MPA/MNA for favourable posting… MPA/MNA needs officers who are not obsessed with rules & regulation ( who may create hindrance in their joy ride over masses)

There is no fixed rules about this… NO DDO IS ENTITLED TO RECEIVE “KITCHEN EXPENSES” FROM MUKHTIARKAR.. THERE IS NO SUCH ENTITLEMENT… I KNOW FEW CASES, BUT I SERIOUSLY CONDEMN SUCH PRACTICE… I have already replied the motives behind corruption of civil servants

This again relates to corruption, which has already been replied in detail

We (specially) have no habit of generalizing the statements, I’v always given a balanced opinion with reasons, I do accept that few of officers do make money, but I have emphasized that not every one is making money…

Again it’s up to rest to decide who is generalizing things here… U’v said 90% of bureaucrat are corrupt (PL PL PL QUOTE UR SOURCE) Otherwise its nothing but generalisation

I don’t claim to be completely correct… my aim is to give other side of coin.. People r always there who refuse to see the truth… Let not b judgemental an let others decide according to their wisdom

Nothing personal Bro… Agreed… Our system requires serious over-hauling

HAHAHAHAHAHA…HUM LOG BHI PAKISTAN ME RAHTEE HAIN DOST

Its very cynical… It should b responsibility of DCO to check corruption of his DDO



Regards

__________________
You'll never walk alone