Well everybody is fully awared about this so called "locha" of war against terrorism so intoduced by western bloc, and now several other nations are also sharing their assisstance.
Right after the abolishment of communism, US has now targeted Islamic Ummah, and for this case NEOCONS are working on various plateforms.

Al-Qaida, which is a renowned muslim terrorist group is the hot cake of above mentioned war. It is the one who is stinking the entire world and suffocating the Islamic Idealogy. Now the question that so arises in my mind is that, Al-Qaida is headed by Usama Bin Laden, the one whom US fraughted and nourished in 1979 against USSR, Usama and his team went to Afghanistan and devastated the internal ground for the sake of US victory, and thus succeeded. Chalo jee yay kissa came to its end.
Reading the history right after the disintegration of USSR, we came to know that on not getting the deserving prestige and privileges from the US side, Usama turned against occidentals and formed Al-Qaida the jihadi group.
As I've already wrote in my previous thread that

An observer of British newspaper “The Gardian” precise the announcement of Usama Bin Laden that he did in 1996, that was also termed as its first “Jihad announcement”, like this,

“ War against Americans”, in which he said; “I am fighting
against the US foreign policy in the Middle East, specially
I am active against the US favor for the Israel state. My
mission is to start the civilization war between Islam and
western jewish crusaders, and I want US to react severely,
so after that Muslim world can become the standard bearer
of radicalism and will over throw the suporter governments
of the west.”

Now I want to ask, is this a correct way of taking revenge? As it is known to all us that right now, the nation which is backword in science and technology in mutual trade, in economy is no one else but muslims.
We can judge by having a look at this figure that the national growth of entire member countries of OIC is equal to half of just a single country Japan, Isn't that a shame?
What I want to say is that, the dream of Usama Bin Laden is to ravage out the muslim community instead to subverting the US and buddies.

What is happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebnan, Iran, Pakistan and other muslim countries is clear to us.

Here are some facts regarding of getting dubious from Al-Qaida that I want to share with forum members,
1) FBI, the most advanced investigation bureau in the whole world, whose hundreds of defense satellites working in the space, which can focus even a small needle lying on a narrow street of Baghdad, that FBI failed to persecute Al-Qaida in Tora Bora mountains. Similarly it gave wrong informations about Iraqi weapons sector.

2) Last time the vedio tape of Usama was broadcasted by Qatar TV, couldn't FBI investigate that how and from which resources that tape reached to the media? Or has it lost its calliber?

3) When ever US wants to crush any state or I better say Muslim state, it use the name of Al-Qaida and intervene.

4) Al-Qaida has no proper assembly, no head quarter, no technology and advanced weapons, then why US's FBI couldn't locate it?

5) Several innocent Muslim civillians are dying in Guantanamo Bay and different such sort of torcher cells just on the basis of this suspect that they might belong to Al-Qaida. (wow)

I would also like to share some physical aspects about world trade center that was completely demolished on 9/11.

i) If aircraft had striken the trade tower than it would have destroyed just the upper few floors, but instead of this, we see that whole tower fell down, which is only possible if there would be some explosive material subjected in the basement of the building, or only if earth quake would happen. So here the first option is affermative.

ii) Later on, it was shown in the media that Usama admitted this blast, plus FBI also asserted that they had complete profile of those muslim terrorists who were inside that aircraft. Well, the question arises that if FBI has all such info then why it didn't stop that aircraft while it was taking off? As afterall they have complete record of the passengers.

iii) The final aspect is known to everyone that it was some religious celebration of jews on the day when blast occured, and so on that day none of the jewish mind was present at there to be get blow.

Thus these facts clearly depicts that it was NEOCONS who were behind that adversity not Muslims.

So the reason behind all this information is to say that, I think Al-Qaida is still working for the US by coating itself as a Muslim Jihadist fighting for Islam.

WALLAH HO A'ALAM

Miss Maria Khan,

Nice to read your analytical post! The questions which you raised often come to our mind and we just skip them without giving them due importance. I would like to comment on your post as follows:


During the cold war, the whole of US struggle was aimed at defeating USSR with the view to acquire the status of sole major Military power thus changing the world into a ‘uni-polar’ regime. USA finally succeeded due to hasty and ill-planned expansion struggle of USSR, which tried to penetrate the Muslim world by invading Afghanistan and becoming a serious threat to other Islamic countries. USA got golden chance of defeating USSA and its so called communism with the help of Muslim countries.

Pakistan also had its role as being immediate neighbor of Afghanistan as a possible next victim of USSR’s territory expansion struggle. So an aid package was approved for Zia regime, who in return gave US this proposal that radical fundamentalists Muslims out of many Muslim countries can be used for ‘jihad’ type fight against USSR in the territory of Afghanistan.

So in those days, it was US itself which recruited many Muslims ‘Jihadies’ from many Muslim countries including middle eastern and North African Muslim countries. These ‘Jihadies’ were recruited from Palestine also and in those days HAMAS was favorite to not only for USA but also for Israel. So USA recruited many members of HAMAS also for this purpose.

For USA, this was the fight of ‘capitalism’ vs ‘communism’. ‘Jihadies’ were the pawns in the hands of USA, but those Jihadies, in their minds, were fighting for the cause of Islam. USA itself gave those Jihadies the necessary training.

After the fall of USSR, the major event which made many those former Jihadies against USA was the US’s intervention in middle east. Its war against Iraq and the ‘settlement’ of US army troops in the territory of Saudi Arabia.

Osama, the former ‘Jihady’ perhaps could not digest the presence of US army in his home territory so he might have gone against USA in this way. By this time, these Jihadies were already ‘trained’ and they were already equipped with necessary ammunition.

In my assessment, real ambitions of Osama are ‘nationalistic’ rather than ‘Islamic’. He is fighting for getting USA and Israel out of Arab territory. Osama is using the name of Islam just to get popularity and support from radical fundamentalists throughout Muslim world. Just like that USA fought its own war against ‘communism’ by using the name of Jihad, with the view to arrange ‘ready to die man power’, so Osama is also fighting his own Nationalist war and he is using the name of Islam with the view to get ready to die fighters for him.

In my assessment, Osama is not the hidden ally of USA but still then really Osama’s activities are proving ‘helpful’ for USA.

Present uni-polar regime is a whole new thing in the whole history of mankind. USA is in need to perpetuate this regime at every cost. For this purpose, following two strategies are crucial for USA:

1- USA is in need to maintain and to accumulate its military supremacy with the view to try to perpetuate this uni-polar regime. For this purpose, USA is in need to acquire monopoly in the production of WMD’s. For this purpose, USA is not only in need to invest huge amount of US citizen’s tax money in the production of more and more dangerous WMDs but it is also in need to counter this threat that any other country may not try to produce WMDs.
2- In order to just legitimize its huge spending in WMDs, USA government is in need to convince its own people that USA is really facing some serious threats to the National security. It is why US government intentionally projects 5% or 6% threat to its National security as some 500% or 600%. So Osama is posing 5% threat to US National security but it is in the interest of USA government to project this treat as 500%. In this way, USA government not only legitimizes extra spending on military spheres but it also successfully legitimizes US led attacks even on other sovereign countries.

Lets say Iraq was a 6% problem for US National security, but it was really projected to be as 600%.

USA does not want to face any real enemy. But it really wants to boost about some fake or fictitious ‘enemy’ just in order to legitimize its worldwide military activities, even before other Nations. USA wants to convince the world that real problem which world faces today is ‘terrorism’. By ‘advertising’ and ‘marketing’ the ghost of Osama, USA is only doing or at least trying to do this thing namely that all the world should accept that real problem of present day world is this ‘terrorism’ and it is only USA which can effectively lead the world in this ‘War against terrorism’.

To kill or to capture Osama is not in the interest of USA. If he is captured and so War against terrorism ends in this way then USA would lose its legitimacy as a leader of world. If there is perfect peace in the world, then USA would lose all its ethical grounds for manufacturing of its own WMDs. Then rest of the countries will demand USA to stop the further production of any WMD. But if USA stops further production of WMDs then how would it maintain its military supremacy to rest of world and how USA would perpetuate this ‘uni-polar’ regime’????

USA is intelligently handling the over-all scenario as a result of which, in the eyes of other major Nations of the world, ethical position of USA is better than that of Osama and that of other ‘radical’ sovereign states as well. USA is successful because it is successfully continuing its uni-polar regime and at the same time other major nations are also justifying US stance on international matters.

Osama is a fool. Yes he may be successful in acquiring the support of many hundred ‘ready to die’ radicals but he does not enjoy ethical support of any other major Nation of the world. USA would like to allow and to keep this fool alive and active for its own sake.

USA’s decline is not possible unless it becomes ethically isolated. Our own foolish attitudes however, shall not let this time to come. If there happens another 9/11 attack on USA, Osama shall not win the game. Actually USA shall get more ethical support of the world in this way.

And I am sure once USA is ethically isolated, then even its military supremacy cannot save it from the consequent collapse.


Surely it is not the right way of taking revenge. The right way would be to find the ways how to ethically isolate USA. It would require both negative and positive strategies. Negative strategy would be to highlight USA’s wrong doings on every forum and positive strategy would be to rise up the ethical standards of our own societies so that we proudly say to others that we are so much ethically strong, we cannot be terrorist. Since USA is not ethically so strong (i.e. negative strategy), so USA is the terrorist.



Yes agree! Our backwardness has more internal reasons than external reasons. There are many fools among us.


Reason, in my assessment, is simply that to kill or to capture Osama is not in the interest of USA.

I do not agree in that. I think Osama is not hidden ally of USA. Osama is fighting for his Nationalistic ambitions under the disguise of “Islamic” ambitions.

Osama is a fool and all his activities are giving more and more strength to USA.

Thanks!

__________________
Where is the SIGNATURE....????

Thanks a lot for sharing ur great knowledge with us in this regards.

You said that Usama is merely a Nationlist instead of being US ally, well, may be ur perception would be correct, as we don't know what's really going on behind the curtain.
Being a Muslim, if one needs to fight against infidel power then in that case one shall keep his benefits and intrests at a side, if he's not suppose to adopt such format and keeps on violating Islamic image then I better say one is definitely demonstrating itself as an indirect ally of heathens and thats what Usama doing.

Talking about whites' morality, then in that regards I would like to say that since the day first this white nation is showing itself as one of the best extremist, tyrant and coward nation (coward in the sense that one who is wicked is obviously coward) in this whole world, first they perished red indians, then africans, then south asians, vaitnamies, USSR, and now middle east. Their dominant and canny nature is crystal clear to all of us, their characters are totally drowned, as in their region lesbians and gays are considered to be legal, they are used to throwing their older subjects in old homes, in every 10 secs two girls are raped everyday. According to mordern statistics every american is used to having atleast 8 sex parteners before legitimate marraige. Chirstianity doesn't allowed all this shame, its the part of their culture. So that will be good if u better not talk about their ethics. the reason why they are on the top is merely this that they are not impassive, along with all this rubbish they are also active in the country development programs, they are damn sinsere in their work and they are most puntual of time, and thus by means of establishing WB, IMF and WTO through UNO, they are enjoying the capital of Muslim and other under developing countries by imposing their desired economic policies.

The reason why Muslims are plunged in the depth of darkness is only coz we are ossified, definitely we have forgotten out Islamic lessons and the subjective regulations.
You can see in history, that in previous time, when we were ruling the whole world. Its only coz our ancestors were true Muslims and they strictly follow the Islamic doctrines, in result, they succeeded to establish such a strong empire, that dragged thousand years to be get abolished.

I don't think so that, now Usama and Mr.US the great could last for long,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the reason is its foreign policy about which I'll discuss later coz its time to go.

FEE AMAN ALLAH.

__________________
Farangi teyra chehra do rangi,,,A'ankhein roshan dil zangi.

ASA,

Well! Thanks for raising further points. My response is as under:

Yes we do not know what is actually going on behind the curtain. We only can assess what could be the most appropriate factual position. In this paragraph, I do not agree to your reasoning because first you say, “Being a Muslim, if one needs to fight against infidel power then in that case one shall keep his benefits and intrests at a side.” My understanding is that you want to say that if a Muslim would fight with any infidel power, then that Muslim cannot prefer ‘Nationalistic’ ambition.

I think my assessment is more appropriate because in my opinion, Osama, being a Muslim, at least is not acting as any ‘hidden ally’ of any infidel force. According to your stance, Osama is a Muslim and at the same time he is acting as ‘indirect ally’ of that infidel force.

In my opinion, Osama is a TRUE Muslim. But the deriving force which is compelling him to fight against USA is not Islam. He is not fighting with USA with the view to spread Islam in USA. His purpose is to get US forces out of middle east territory and politics. So the primary deriving force for Osama is his Nationalism. He is using the name of Islam for his relatively limited Nationalistic reasons. By using the name of Islam, he is able to find ‘ready to die’ people for his own purpose. He does not want to demonstrate himself as any indirect ally of USA. But his all actions are proving helpful for USA. USA happened to be more intelligent than Osama in this case. USA can effectively use this ‘ghost’ of Osama for its own purposes. USA is not capturing Osama not because Osama really is their hidden ally. USA is not capturing Osama because Osama, UNINTENTIALLY is doing all those things which actually go in favor of USA.


About USA’s ethics:

What I said in my previous reply was that ethical position of USA is more strong as compared to Osama, IN THE EYES OF OTHER MAJOR NATIONS OF THE WORLD.

Other major Nations are those who also possess some significant military power. Remember that not a single Muslim country (with a doubtful exception of Pakistan) would come under the purview of ‘major Nation’.

So I still insist that USA is ethically stronger as compared to Osama if we compare them using the spectacle of the VALUE SYSTEMS OF OTHER MAJOR NATIONS OF THE WORLD.

Simple is that Osama is a ‘terrorist’ whereas USA is leading the ‘war against terrorism’. Osama is considered as a leader of suicide bombers. Suicide bombers usually attack on civil places. They kill the innocent people and do not feel any ashamed of it.

Even if we do not use the spectacle of the value system of other major nations, and use the spectacle of our own value system, how can we justify killing of innocent people including women and children ……?????????

Can the killing of innocent civilians be justified how much cruel and unethical their leaders may be?????

I do not think that our own value system allows us that since USA’s army attacks kill our civilians so we also can kill their civilian people.

It is sure fact that despite all the cruelties of USA’s army, USA is really trying hard to prove (before other major nations) that its ethical position is stronger to terrorists. Just consider what USA did in Afghanistan and then in Iraq. Before reading these lines, first wear the spectacle of the value-system of ‘Major Nations’. So what USA did in Afghanistan? Did USA not free the innocent population of Afghanistan from suffering in the hands of a radical and fanatic government? That fanatic government was posing a threat to ‘International peace’ by hosting and helping terrorist organizations in their territory. Afghan (Taliban) government was discriminating every non-sunni and non-Muslim elements of society. Did USA not save those elements from suffering undue discrimination in the hands of a fanatic government?

And then what USA did in Iraq? Was Sadam not a cruel dictator? Did he not kill his own people? Were people of Iraq happy with their government? Was Sadam not posing threat to surrounding countries (including Muslim countries) by trying to produce WMDs?

And Yes many civilians also died due to USA’s attacks in both these countries. But remember this crucial point that USA is still in a position to justify those killings. I already have discussed this point in some detail in another thread. See My post on this thread http://www.cssforum.com.pk/thread2516.html

In short, USA still can justify its position by saying such things as those civilians were not intentionally targeted by army and they were killed just accidentally etc.

In addition to this, USA at least pretends to attack for the sake of ‘welfare’ of civilians. When USA’s fighter planes drop bombs, some others also drop ‘necessaries’ for general people. In this way USA successfully conveys this message to other ‘major nations’ that all what is happening around is just for the sake of ‘welfare’ of civilians. In this way USA successfully kept its ‘strong’ ethical position in the eyes of other major nations.

Contrary to this ‘wise’ strategy of USA, what Osama and the like do is just that they directly target the civilian spots. Purpose of these terrorists is to promote fear in the civil society. This purpose should be contrasted with the ‘wise’ purpose of USA, which is always the ‘welfare’ of civilians. I think even if you wear the spectacle of our own value-system at this point, you can still feel the ugliness of this ‘un-wise’ strategy of Osama and company.

In this way, USA still enjoys the ethical support of major nations whereas Osama and company is ethically isolated.

Those segments of our society, for whom Osama is still the hero of Islam, give over-all very bad image of over-all Muslim societies before other (major) nations. In this way USA can justify its attack on any radical Muslim state without losing the ethical support of those major nations.

What I am saying is that if USA deserves our hatred because of its cruelties then so Osama and company also deserve our hatred. On ground reality is that we hate (only ideologically but not practically) USA but a significant portion of our society loves Osama. This thing gives over-all very bad image of the moral of our society.

And the bad moral qualities of USA’s people which you pointed out are based on their another very good idea of ‘equality’ and ‘freedom of thought and action’. I would again refer to my other post whose link I have mentioned above. So in reference to what I mentioned in my other post, these things also fall under the idea of ‘value preference’. Due to this thing, westerns do not feel any thing bad in their various social evils. Bad things are only those, which can make us feel bad. If anything does not give bad feelings to westerns then those things cannot be considered to be bad by those westerns. So in their minds, westerns are ethically sounder than us.

The bad aspects of our own societies actually go against our own value system. Due to this reason, westerns rightfully call us un-ethical.

Bad aspects of westerns societies actually do not go against their own value system. So we are not right if we consider them un-ethical on the basis of those ‘bad’ aspects because those ‘bad’ aspects do not go against their own value system.

In short, we cannot LOGICALLY prove that westerns are un-ethical because they possess those bad qualities which you have pointed out in your post. To logically prove that westerns are un-ethical we need to state such reasons as would show that such and such acts of them clearly go against their own value system which emphasizes on such things as ‘equality’ and ‘freedom of thought and action’.

You are not fully right in saying that bad aspects of western societies should be considered bad because they go against their own teachings of Christianity. It is so because present day western societies are more infidel than Christians.


In addition to the reasons which you pointed out, I just want to add another point. Decline of Muslim societies started when they left the search for knowledge.


Agree! US and Osama both shall survive for long. And looking forward for what you were about to say about reasons relating to foreign policy.

Regards!

Khuram

__________________
Where is the SIGNATURE....????

Yes we do not know what is actually going on behind the curtain. We only can assess what could be the most appropriate factual position. In this paragraph, I do not agree to your reasoning because first you say, “Being a Muslim, if one needs to fight against infidel power then in that case one shall keep his benefits and intrests at a side.” My understanding is that you want to say that if a Muslim would fight with any infidel power, then that Muslim cannot prefer ‘Nationalistic’ ambition.

I think my assessment is more appropriate because in my opinion, Osama, being a Muslim, at least is not acting as any ‘hidden ally’ of any infidel force. According to your stance, Osama is a Muslim and at the same time he is acting as ‘indirect ally’ of that infidel force.

In my opinion, Osama is a TRUE Muslim. But the deriving force which is compelling himto fight against USA is not Islam. He is not fighting with USA with the view to spread Islam in USA. His purpose is to get US forces out of middle east territory and politics. So the primary deriving force for Osama is his Nationalism. He is using the name of Islam for his relatively limited Nationalistic reasons. By using the name of Islam, he is able to find ‘ready to die’ people for his own purpose. He does not want to demonstrate himself as any indirect ally of USA. But his all actions are proving helpful for USA. USA happened to be more intelligent than Osama in this case. USA can effectively use this ‘ghost’ of Osama for its own purposes. USA is not capturing Osama not because Osama really is their hidden ally. USA is not capturing Osama because Osama, UNINTENTIALLY is doing all those things which actually go in favor of USA.


Here u definitely need to rectify ur conclusion regarding my text sir,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,pl us I smell that my words still need a bit more discription,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Sir, it is known to all of us that we muslims or I better say that the entire Muslim Ummah is by itself a whole nation, yup thats affermative that the territories are different but this thing cannot segregate our identity of being a muslim,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as it is already given in Quran,
"Grab firmly the rope of Allah and do not factionize urselves."

So if any Muslim country is found to be subjected by foreign intervention then its the job of entire muslim community to hold back such movement by means of overall moral, economic and military provision, as afterall its the matter of restoration of Islamic nationalism,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thus the element of nationalism cannot be placed at a side at all. But if one is using bogus tactics in such format that it is perpetrated to violate other Muslim countries then such subject cannot be consider as nationalist through the sight of Islam.

The great trouble is this that we people don't have unity,,,,,,,,,,,,thats the reason why we are weak and suppressed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,for further assistance see my thread http://www.cssforum.com.pk/thread276...,,,,,,,,,,,the predators are sitting on our heads only because we are damn divided,,,,,,we are not together and this thing is the major reason why we are not able to preserve our Islamic idealogy. We cannot confidently say that whether Usama really exists or not, or perhaps the whites are just using the "Ghost Of Usama.". We are doubted about Al-Qaida only because of its rubbish war strategy, as yet their so called Jehad has done nothing except subverting the Afghan and Iraqi territories plus Iran, Pakistan, Syria and Lebnon are also victim of it. Just tell me, Usama Bin Laden worked for US intelligence during the war of 1979 and later on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,so definitely he is not bumpkin or gothic in regards of war puzzles, then could u expect such silly preceedence from his side? Thats the reason why our minds say that may be he is a stalement of US.

Another thing is that, there is some difference or I must a great difference in the definations of an "indirect ally" and "hidden ally". Hidden ally is the one who is truely genial and sincere with his friend and keep on assisting his buddy without exposing his passions infront of externals. While "indirect ally" is that yokel enemy who; by means of his shit moves forg easy going tracks for his enemies to overcome their targets,,,,,,,,,,and thus entitled as an "indirect ally". So this is the reason why I used "indirect ally" for Usama,,,,,,,,,,but this thing also has possiblity that he might be a "hidden ally" of US, as none of the titles still haven't got their essurance.

If Usama does exist, and if he is really running this Al-Qaida, then I can't consider him as a true muslim,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,because a true Muslim will never kill innocent people who have nothing to do with the war by means of fidai bombings, and thus by this attempt he is responsible to commit the violation of Islamic concept .So on this point we have dissention.
If he is a true Muslim then he better struggle to instigate Muslim Ummah to be get united instead of attempting such attacks which are doing nothing but mutilating the Islamic image. The thing that endanger Jews is our spirit and unity, and thus they are intensely working to graze these factors and no doubt they are almost succeeded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if Usama is a true muslim then he better exercise against the jewish strategy which actually he's not doing.
My master said that if you want to beat your enemy then observe his sight angle with his steps. I wonder my master could tell this thing to Usama too,,,,,,,,,,,anyways.

Now comming towards the term "USA's ethics",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,in this regards I need to say that the moves which are considered as eithics near you are actually the "Finesse strategem" of USA, ethics is the most dignified word that has no match here ( no offence its simply my view),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.And as far as the specs of major nations's value system is concern; that you have made more emphatic in your text, then in order to cure the subjective infected vision I would like to provide some healing dose that will be quiet enough to sharpen the vision of Muslim Ummah and so do the left over world. So here we go,
Two american recearch proffessors, one is Mr. John Mereshe who teaches political science in Chicago University and the other is Mr. Stephen Walt who is the teacher of international relation in Oxford University, prepared a report named "THE TRAGEDY OF GREAT POWER POLITICS", it was published in the magzine of London Review Of Books on March 10th, 2006,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,in this report it is said or I better say; it was asserted that on every level whatever USA is doing is merely for the sake of glorifying Israel,,,,,,,,,,since Second world war till yet, US has provided nearabout 140 billion$ to Isreal,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,jews's claws are quiet firm on US administration and government and their lobby is running quiet effectively out their,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it has got the almost favor of american politicians and the entire media resources, and this is the thing that oppresses US leadership to work for the betterment and prosperity of Isreal, plus the most powerful political party which is so now in US is "US-Isreal affair committe"(AIPAC). And recently it was said by Mr. John Bohanz (who is the leader of majority parliament) in American Representative Chamber that US will not accept any such resolution that will go against Isreal benefits. So by this we could easily depict that how much firm control do these jews have on USA.
Now the question arises that what are those factors which are responsible to strengthen jews over there?
Its answer is "THE MESON", which is an international organization who is working on the project of capacitating jews to rule over the entire world, as afterall it is written in TORAH that they are "the chosen people of GOD", and thats what it is doing since several years. It was the hurriedness and impatience of that community regarding their domination over the Muslims and Christians that divulged this organization on the world stage,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but still the team is active,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.
All past american presidents have tasted its membership and so do the subjects of Royal British, which is no doubt the one of those "MAJOR NATIONS" whose specs you wanted me to wear.
The major aim of this organization is to differentiate Muslim community and to ruin its unity, as afterall unity is the major power of any nation.
After the divulgence of THE MESON, another committe was made in late 1970s, its headquarter is in one of those US universities in which students of cream level are used to having their admissions, the family of those students belong to political, trade and industrial background, thus this committe select 15 students which it found competent to their demand, and during their educational period it starts their training along with assisting them in their practical life later on so that the subjects keep owing them by doing exactly what they want for the fullfillment of their proganda. Hence since that time till yet this second committe ( I don't know its name) has prepared hundreds of its workmen and women who are cobwebed in all major sectors of US.
That is, in easy words we can say that they are the policy makers of US. This is that lobby which is creating hindrences in Palestine salvation, it is the only one which brought intervention and ferocity in Afghanistan and Iraq, and it is one who is staring Iran and other Muslim countries like a hungry cunning fox. These parasitical policies are chicken spread for those God damn major nations, not for us, so we don't want to wear such visionary glasses. Bad should be called bad, and stupid should be called stupid i.e. Al-Qaida.

Now, the locals of those major nations are also protesting against such mischevious actions that has been so done by their government. Bush has placed as the 4th worst President in the entire US political record, approx 65% of his nation is against his policies, so how can we wear his specs?
Presidential nominee Mr. John Kery said that Bush has placed his head in the horny nest, he further said, "the US will bleed men, money and reputation."
Few days ago President's press secretary Mac Klan gave his resign, plus number of senator secretaries are stressing the defense minister Donald Ramesfield to place his resign on Bush's table, the same situation is in Britin as well.
So now tell me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,when the citizens of these MAJOR or big nations are against their government actions, when they are not satisfied with their actions and stances then how could we; who are the victims could consider them of strong morality holders? It's given in Quran,
"Jews and Nazareners can never be your friends."

Its the administrative, political and mediatory style of americans that whenever they found any such target that sound difficult for them to be surmounted then in such case they take out any tiny or innoxious aspect that goes against the subject, and thus, with respect to that aspect they succeedly found the track to grab that target.
Like,,,,,,,,,,,,,if we have a look on history it'll tell us that the disintegration of USSR was resulted on the basis of corn trade, isn't that amazing, similarly for destroying the Iraqi nuclear reactors US first raised the vioce that Iraqi women haven't got their complete rights and thus by complicating this issue it attacked on the subjective points. Hence in the same way it subverted Saddam and Kernal Qazzafi. Thus such style of US is cleared in its policies which you call its 'Ethics".

Just tell me, if Saddam was cruel, violent and extremest then why US didn' shooked his head earlier?
First US used Saddam against Iran and Kwiat, it provided him all necessary sustenence just to destroy his own brothers. And now, as it has felt great need of oil treasure it attacked Iraq by blaming that it has dangereous weapons and its ruler has terms with Usama (aab aa gaiay yahan bhi mahan Usama). As it is known that Russia has 48 trillion cubic meter feet oils and gas treasure, so how US could stay back in this sector,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and thus after occuping Iraq it is using its oil treasure like an oil filibuster, it is using Iraqi oil for its military purposes.
Same situation is in Afghanistan, it is our neighbour and we are the only islamic nuclear power,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thus by occuping Afghanistan by claiming that Usama is in Tora Bora,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,US is now capable to surmount us, it wants to Break our territory, situation of Balochistan is infront of us,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,how indians and puppet kabul is working for US aimbitions is also crsytal clear to us. And in the same manner Iran is also victimized. US hasn't have any tender heart for afghnai natives for the sake of which he encroached to scrape Taliban rule,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,US arrived only because it has its concerns out there, and everybody know that.

What US troops are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is not hidden from the eyes of entire world,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they are killing innocent Iraqi and Afghani brothers and sisters,,,,,,,,,,US has now failed to cover itself, as no flag could cover the shame of killing the innocent people. US and its MAJOR NATIONS all belong to same shit family, thats the reason why they are trying to conceal their butchery.
US has no sympathy for us, then how can we consider its ethics strong in our regards? I better say, US and its allies and confined with their worst policies, thus couldn't find proper turn to prove themselves just.

Islam is the religion of peace, justice and moderation, how can it be the standard bearer of terrorism,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the main reason is this, actually we don't have such representation that could clear the doubts that has so been created at international level about our religion. Any concept can only become successful if it has capability to solve the problems of entire humanity whether people are muslim or non-muslim.
Yet the campaign which is so running globally regarding Islam is "BIN LADENISM", and this campaign is troublesome instead to being a reliever.
There is a great need of proper Islamic conceptual representation that could raze all dubious elements. This project is based on two steps first is mental captivity and second is the presentaion of a society that should give practical example of Isamic rules and regulations. I think this is the only way out.


And the bad moral qualities of USA’s people which you pointed out are based on their another very good idea of ‘equality’ and ‘freedom of thought and action’. I would again refer to my other post whose link I have mentioned above. So in reference to what I mentioned in my other post, these things also fall under the idea of ‘value preference’. Due to this thing, westerns do not feel any thing bad in their various social evils. Bad things are only those, which can make us feel bad. If anything does not give bad feelings to westerns then those things cannot be considered to be bad by those westerns. So in their minds, westerns are ethically sounder than us.

The bad aspects of our own societies actually go against our own value system. Due to this reason, westerns rightfully call us un-ethical.

Bad aspects of westerns societies actually do not go against their own value system. So we are not right if we consider them un-ethical on the basis of those ‘bad’ aspects because those ‘bad’ aspects do not go against their own value system.

In short, we cannot LOGICALLY prove that westerns are un-ethical because they possess those bad qualities which you have pointed out in your post. To logically prove that westerns are un-ethical we need to state such reasons as would show that such and such acts of them clearly go against their own value system which emphasizes on such things as ‘equality’ and ‘freedom of thought and action’.

You are not fully right in saying that bad aspects of western societies should be considered bad because they go against their own teachings of Christianity. It is so because present day western societies are more infidel than Christians.


Wow, your statements sounds purely mathematical,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,i.e. in order to prove the wrong theorem one better use the idea of contrapositivity. Well, such method is possible only in mathematical work not in social and individual life.
Near me the so generated value system cannot run effectively for long, as definitely man is not inerrable, afterall everything in this universe has friction. Its only the divine value system that could run ideally forever. Both Islam and Christianity provide equity and freedom of expression, the main difference between religious value system and self generated value system is that, religion forbids to adopt unnatural life styles while mundaneous value system allow all such action for the "waysa" of sensuality and other different gratifications and indulgence. And no doubt this form is truly wrong, thats not what only I say,,,,,,,,,,,,,this point is admitted by the natives of such society as well.
Pual Gonzalo, a 59 years old american who lives in Alaska and a very good friend of mine, said that his society has definitely lost shame and respect, no doubt hot blood (I mean energetic people) are enjoying all their freedom, but later on they suffer their own actions, even few centuries ago they weren't like this, but now everything is change and this change is truly bad,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,our "value system" has ruined our family system and so do our social lives.

Few days ago I read in one of the well known news paper, that Britishers are now considering to illegitimize sodomy, so as to secure their family system, as out of every three children one comes out as the result of unlawful coition. Tell me, if they consider their "value system" upright or I better say "not bad" then why they are willing to change the subjective law?

During my college times one of my christian friend Diana Wilson said that the christianity of nowadays can't be taken as christianity as their Bible is entirely changed, and they have to follow whatelse their father says,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,plus the concept of biptasm is also not their revealed concept. Well thats what a christian said about christianity.

But the tragedy is that, we have no face so left to comment on their life styles, as we people also, has adopted all such devilish activities which is forbidden in Islam, the only difference is this, they do such movement wide openly while we do all that by concealing it. So in order to point them out, its foremost that we should accountable ourselves first.

Now the question that why they are more powerful then us although bearing such fetid value system, its answer is this,, they have adopted all good things from our Quran excluding TUHEED, the sincereity, devotion, honesty, dutifullness and diligence, we can speculate their judicial and economic system in this regard. Plus they are working on Quran for the sake of scientific research,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,my cousin who is studying in Michigen University US said that since several years, the US scientists are working on AAB-E-ZAM ZAM so as to know that what are those elements that bring cure to the effectees.
Our sluggish moves have brought us at this position now, and for this situation ALLAH has already says,
"We won't let kuffar to rule on Momins."

The reason behind writing all this is that we; although being a Mohammadan world are so far from our Quranic learnings while the others are hailing themselves with it. We are not momins and thats the shame why we are now dominating by the non-muslims. And people are trying to preserve their position by saying this that in order to prove the foreign "value system" wrong one should raise the logics,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,wrong thing is wrong afterall,,,,,,,,,it need no logics for their proof.

FEE AMAN ALLAH HI WA HIFZIHI

__________________
Farangi teyra chehra do rangi,,,A'ankhein roshan dil zangi.

While preparing the above thread, I forgot that I haven given words about mentioning the conditions and factors that dipict that ploicies of whites won't let them last for long. So have an overview,

In order to have a look towards the turning point or in other words the failure of US foreign policy; we better retrospect the ruling time of President Ronald Regan, that was the peak time of US politics.
It was its aggressive foreign policy and military tactics that resulted the ravage of Soviet Union’s strong influence over Central Asia, 3rd world and South Africa, its demilitarization from Afghanistan and the straggle of the entire Soviet Communist Empire. But the events and affairs on international level right after that time shows the contamination of the subjective foreign policy.
Talk about Somalia, we see that after the encroachment of US military; how the dead bodies of American soldiers were dragged by jeeps by tying them with the ropes, thus various such sort of attempts of Somalian molestation made US arms out of their territory.
The reason behind this was the confusion and mental perplexity of constitutionalists of state department and those who were designing war strategy in Pentagon, means that, they simply couldn’t find when and where they should apply their military skills in order to achieve their benefits and plus points. During last two decades we can easily visualize their confusion and uptightness in Bosnia, Somalia, Central Asia, Afghanistan and Iraq.
Now what their constitutionalists and policy makers used to do? Well, since the period of President Bush Senior till yet they simply place their so designed menace on the head of President of the time and on his government, and turn themselves free like a bird, thus the effected leaders hide themselves by giving this old statement that they get such problems and challenges in their bequest (heritage).
Still we are watching those great, honorary and heroic policy makers in the political scenario who are using George Walker Bush in their worst agenda and making him to repeat such sardonic mistakes once again, example of Iran, Iraq, Syria, North Korea and Afghanistan regarding to these failed US policies is in front of us. that how intensely they are stuck on those lands where they could find any way out to preserve their prestige. And no doubt that this is a confident obstinacy of Bush that he is constantly asserting that they have solved certain matter or disputes right according to the benefits of US. But the facts and results are simply averse to this.
Lets have a look on Afghanistan. USA sent its armed forces over there in 2001 for the sake of their benefits and concerns by placing this damn claim that Usama Bin Laden is hiding in the mountains of Tora Bora, but it’s crystal clear that yet they haven’t succeeded to achieve their motives

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out there. The excessive military impositions has created an intense volcanic situation in Afghan territory, US and NATO forces has been stuck in non-ending war and this thing has generated great jittery among the white soldiers. The army of North Afghanistan about whom we know that they are against Americans and towards Russians and Indians; are hailing themselves with US fuel. And this is known to all of us that if for instance US and NATO armed forces left Afghanistan then Karzai’s government could never stand or resist against Taliban troops, which are hibernating for the time being on the basis of their well-planned tactics. Thus in short US are drowning itself in horrible Afghans’ quagmire.
Now come towards Iraq, US has attacked two time over their, its second attack has made in 2003 on the basis of falsehood that Iraq contains deadly weaponry stocks, since then US and its supporter troops are still over there, but here also their presence couldn’t work to accomplish their ambitions, and instead of this the ferrous Iraqi masses
has been turned insurmountable before them, US attack and their joint encroachments has created great anti-solidarity and violence in Iraq, and on this stage it seems to be quiet difficult to establish desirable peace over there, and if such situation remains constant then the country will get divided among Sunni, Sheea and Kurd communities that would kill the integrity and peace concept, and this thing will become quiet dangerous for Israel.
US couldn’t preserve its prestigious departure from Iraq same like it did from Vietnam, plus Russian is providing great sustenance to Taliban and Iraqi impediments, that’s the reason why it is oppress to do negotiations with Iran; as Iran is the only country that could help it to get out from Iraq, as both Iran and Iraq have Sheeas in majority and so as their governments. So lets see whether their plan will work or not. Another thing that should be get mentioned is that, if US will left Iraq frivolously then this thing will bring great disorders in Middle East, there would be drastic economic downfall in international oil markets, Iraq would be subjected to severe adversity more than it is suffering nowadays. In short, if bush did such blunder then the entire world would fall in the quagmire of 3rd world war (God forbids).
Moving to North Korea, we realize that US couldn’t lay its force and stress likely it is doing in Iran and Iraq, its because North Korea has Chinese support at its back, and US cannot afford direct quarrel or opposition with the tiger of Asia i.e. “Chinese Republic”. So that’s the reason why US psychology is forbidding it to entangle itself with North Korea, as if US would such attempt such attempt then it would be defamatory to its suicide, example of Soviet Union is wide open to us that what had happened to it when it encroached in Afghanistan, it loose and became
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disintegrated. So if US repeat this mistake in North Korea then communism will recrudesce and Russian federation will get certainly get an opportunity to make up its lost position so as to take its revenge with US of its humiliation that it faced in Afghanistan.
Well, US President would definitely have to answer about whatever he is up to and what else he is willing to do, the whole world has been
subjected to this so called war against terrorism, but still the result is nil, US failed to suppress the terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan, as, the thing that they call extremism and terrorism is actually the struggle for freedom, the struggle to make the invaders and predators out of their land, the struggle to secure and preserve their religious regulations and laws. Nobody lay down their lives until the value of their aim or motive won’t turn superior to that. The people of Palestine are sacrificing their lives everyday, and no day went free from suicide or fidai bombings in Iraq, these all presentations are not just for show, there is a great reason behind. So the intellectuals of Western bloc should have to focus over the victims’ physic.
Now talking about the dangerous turn that US government has taken in South Asia regarding its foreign policy bears pretty far going results, this is a track of impasse. But its simply fantasy of mind that Indian-US romance would change the whole world order, this thing is simply beyond the reality. In this regards I really want to mention that if we have a look on the past Soviet record then we’ll came to know that once the President Berzhnev also said the same thing during his peak time, but now we see that neither he existed nor his super Soviet Union. Well, the reason behind this info is that; if US tactical precedence towards India is not acceptable by Pakistan then US political aims in this region will simply get evaporated instead of tendering the environment. That is if China and Pakistan are dubious then US couldn’t be succeeded in its aims and dreams.
Turning our face towards Indian history we get to know that the subjective territory was never been in the circle of US companions since 1947, it was always considered in the opposite camp. India has strategic relations with Russian Federation, both have made a twenty years contract between each other; Russian federation and India has made a contract in light of which Russia will provide i60 million metric ton Uranium to Indian’s nuclear reactor at Tara por, it is also going to provide its scientists for this concern, both of them are willing to assist each other militarily in GLOBAL NAVIGATION SATELLITE SYSTEM also they serious in space technology co-operation. India is the only country, which is availing Russian missile technology, and due to lack of funds right after the disintegration of USSR; Russian federation is looking towards other countries to do private investments in its space program and India is one of them. Indian masses

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are also against US in majority, we could easily examine their unhappiness through their continuous demonstrations till three days that they had made on the arrival of Bush.
Thus, Indian is cashing out the US political situation, but it won’t last for long, Russia, which is already been ditched, would consider these US tactics right against to its benefits, so its possible that in return it could veto the US resolution against Iranian nuclear enrichment issue in Security Council. Yet Russian is not so prominent in this scenario, but as US foreign policy is against the long-term benefits of China and Russia so this thing would compel both of them to play a sharp role in subvert the policies of Americans for the sake of their merits.
It is known to all of us that the reflex actions against 9/11 has ended now, the international situations are changing, US has been terribly stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan nowadays. It is Pakistan who helped US and his allies for the ravage of terrorism and ferocity, it was Pakistan who is
responsible to provide security to US, it was he who made possible for US to achieve success in Afghanistan, but although knowing all this US merely
consider Pakistan as its supporter or I better say “slave”, plus it has nothing to do with its benefits and concerns, US has always made our antagonists its friends, we now have enough experience of this, that’s what our people and opposition have sharply traited. But our government is still mentioning this current US visit quiet successful one, may be it want to conceal its embarrassment. But now the time is over, our government must have to amend its foreign policy where it should decide that whether they still want to depend on US or want to go away from this.
US tactics are completely against Pakistani strategic benefits, US don’t want to Russian to emerge as a super power, it wants to create obstacles and hindrances in the way of Chinese economical development. But he is not aware that in future his foreign policies could devastate him, Russian Federation will get chance to come forward, and nobody could stop Iran to be the 2nd Islamic nuclear state. It is affirmative that Bush doctrine will sink him into the depth of darkness. So lets keep watching the direction of the tide.

Allah Pe Aman

__________________
Farangi teyra chehra do rangi,,,A'ankhein roshan dil zangi.

Wow!!!! …. I was really expecting such a bombastic reply.


Yes ideologically whole Muslim Ummah is one single nation. But practically it is not so. Practical scenario is whole different from ideal state of affairs. If I say that Osama is struggling for his nationalistic ambitions, here I am NOT using the term ‘nationalism’ in its ideological sense. I am using it in practical sense. Practically Arab nations may prefer Indian stance about Kashmir issue, to that of Pakistan’s. Surely, in these types of matters, ‘nationalism’ in the ‘practical’ sense would be at work. USA companies offer more profits. So ‘practically’ it is beneficial for Saudi Arabia to invest its wealth in American businesses. I could not open your link so I am still unable to understand how our unity can make us strong whereas we already have a functional religion based International Organization of Islamic Countries. I think still Muslim countries feel more belongingness for other Muslim countries than any other let’s say Christian country would feel belongingness for any other Christian country. So what else we can hope of unity? If Europe is united today, IT IS NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR COMMON RELIGION. But they do have common practical interests.

Apparent silly attitude of Osama is explainable from both these angles i.e. firstly by just considering him a ‘practical’ nationalist and secondly by considering him ‘indirect ally’. I still prefer 1st assumption on such grounds that at first, Osama was the ‘direct ally’ of USA. Then he turned out to be ‘direct enemy’ AFTER WHEN US ARMY ENTERED HIS OWN TERRITORY OF SAUDI LAND with the view to punish Iraq. Remember that before 9/11, Osama was charged of being involved in bomb blasts in US embassies in African countries. Point to be remembered is that those bombs blasted exact on the day of eighth anniversary of US first attack on Iraq. So it is more likely that ambitions of territorial type nationalism were at work behind those bomb blasts.


I think this ‘indirect ally’ is not different to that ‘nationalist’ Osama which I assume. So I am ready to accept you’re this explanation.


I here do not agree to your point that true Muslim will never kill innocent people who have nothing to do with the war by means of fidai bombing. It may be true that Osama may actually be a hidden ally of USA. But Osama himself is NOT any fidai bomber. He just USES some ardent, fanatic and ready to die ‘fidai bombers’. Can you say that those ACTUAL ready to die fidai bombers are also hidden or indirect allies of USA????? Can you say that those ACTUAL fidai bombers do not kill their own selves for the ‘cause’ of Islam, obviously in their own feelings?????????????

Those who are ready to kill their own selves for the cause of Islam, why cannot be considered to be true Muslims? What I think is that THEY ARE TRUE MUSLIMS BUT THEY ARE IGNORANT MUSLIMS. They are ignorant because they insist on such a strategy for the cause of Islam, which not only is not evident in the light of true spirit of Islamic teachings but also is giving poisonous effects to the real cause of Islam.



There is good informative material in your this paragraph. Thanks for sharing it with us. I think you want to tell where all ‘major nations’ have got their specs? Then you tell that you do not want to wear such specs.

But I did not say that you keep on wearing those specs for all the time, like other major nations do. What I said was just that you just take a tour of this spectacular vision in order to UNDERSTAND why other major nations cannot see anything unethical in the policies and actions of USA.

Your final conclusion is, “bad should be called bad, and stupid should be called stupid.”

Now take this conclusion of yours in your hands and go to any other major nation. What you shall say? You shall say, “America is bad because it is bad”. Believe me, no one shall accept your point of view.

In order to convince others that USA is bad, you would need to show some those aspects of USA, which could not be censored even by those specs of other major nations.

Alternative strategy can be that you successfully provide other major nations with your own specs so that they may understand the facts in a way in which you want them to understand. Until and unless you do either of these two things, OTHERS SHALL GIVE NO IMPORTANCE TO YOUR POINT OF VIEW.



If you try to look deeply into the matters, which you have pointed out in this para, you shall find that it has happened due to some those policies of Bush Administration WHICH COULD NOT BE CENSORED BY THE SPECS WHICH USA’s OWN PEOPLE WEAR. And this is exactly what I wanted to explain. Now it is general perception that what USA did in Iraq was in clear contrast with USA’s own struggle of ‘war against terrorism’. So people are going against their government mainly due to this reason because this thing clearly went against their own value system. What I want to explain is exactly the same. The right effective policy, in my assessment, would be to repeatedly raise and highlight this or any other similar issue (i.e. which could not be censored by specs of other nations) on every international forum with the view to ethically isolate USA in various international matters. I already have discussed in detail, how we can ethically isolate a superpower country in this thread: http://www.cssforum.com.pk/thread3330.html

I agree that for all its international ventures, USA always try to keep whatever real or even fictitious moral ground for its doings. I have discussed this point also in the above-mentioned link.

And yes I do call it as its ‘ethics’. But I also say that this ethics may not be genuine at all. What I am saying is that in case we find any fictitiousness in that ethical moral ground, then it is our duty to RIGHTFULLY project that fictitiousness in every international forum. And I already have described what the RIGHTFUL WAY COULD BE for this purpose. Obviously, we will have to project the matter in a way that could not be censored out by the specs of others.



Yes these are the matters mostly which could not be censored out by the specs of other nations. These things already are giving negative effects to USA’s missions, which you have pointed out in your previous para. But there is need to REPEATEDLY project these matters on every international forum with the view to accelerate the influence of those negative effects which already have started taking place.


I agree though my understanding as to the cure of current ill situation may be slightly different to that of yours.



Well but I do not think that my assertions fall into the category of contrapositivity. As per my memory, what I listened about this thing was that in this method, if we want to prove the truth of an assertion, we first suppose that the statement actually is false. Then we see and evaluate the possible outcome of this supposition. If the so outcome is found out to be quite absurd, then we conclude that our original assumption was wrong in fact. If our original assumption was wrong, it means that original assertion was not false. If original assertion was not false then it means that it was true in fact. In this way we prove the truth of a given assertion.

I have not used this method in my assertions. My method was a simple logic which can be successfully applied in the study of various social phenomena also.


Agree in that the old values in western societies are still in function but to just some extent and also in much modified form. We should promote our own values along with strong rational footings so that others may become able to see the beauty and goodness of our values.


This point of view that westerns have taken all the things from our religious teachings is rather traditional and most of the times, it is promoted just blindly. I can see no solid basis for this point of view. If westerns have taken all the things from our religious teachings then they should not possess those social evils, which they do possess. Secondly if they really have found the true spirit of our religion then we should not have any objection in living under their leadership.

For unknown reasons, our mainstream education system as well as madarassah education system, both intentionally keep us away from knowing this fact that westerns do possess their own sources of ethical outlook of the world, which resembles to that of ours in some respects but the resemblance is just superficial.

Apart from ethical type teachings of ancient religions, the first intellectuals who imparted profound influences on ethical outlook of west were Socrates and Plato. Socrates attempted to elaborate the meanings of virtue, truth, justice etc. Plato came up with his doctrine of objective existence of ethical and moral codes and values/ standards.

Aristotle happened to be more like a scientist rather than teacher of ethics. There was no concept of international brotherhood up till that time. Plato and Aristotle tried to legitimize slavery in their respective styles. But the emergence of Roman Empire in 1st century AD gave a whole new outlook to mankind. Philosophies like Stoicism and Epicureanism emerged in that period. These were ethical type philosophies in essence. It was Stoics who first reacted against slavery and propounded the idea of universal brotherhood of humanity. Epicureans asserted that end goal before individuals should be of getting ‘intellectual pleasure’ which they could get through their thirst for knowledge and wisdom.

That Roman Empire was consisted of various city-states. For the better management of affairs of cities, Roman administrators realized the importance of ‘honesty’ in the inter-relationships of city people. So they adopted this social value of ‘honesty’ because it happened to be PRACTICALLY more beneficial for them.

Apart from the teachings of Bible and Engeal, teachings of many other religious philosophers (better known as ‘scholastics’) also shaped the ethical outlook of west unto a considerable extent. St. Augustine and St. Aquinas developed their own ethical doctrines. Doctrines of St. Aquinas later on became the official doctrines of medieval Europe.

During the renaissance period, many rational philosophers also came up with their own ethical doctrines. Spinoza, for instance, made a theory of ethics based on the principles of geometry. Various types of philosophies such as materialism, idealism, rationalism, realism, nominalism etc. etc. all had their corresponding results about the ethical outlook of life.

Yes it is true that west got many things from the teachings of Islam also but it is just baseless to say that all positive aspects of west originated in the teachings of Islam.

And it is equally important to mention that Western teachings also drew many impressions on the Muslim outlook of ethics. For example Muslim Sufis’ concepts of ‘Ishq-e-Haqiqi’, ‘fana-fi-Allah’ etc. has the roots in 1st Century AD’s philosophy known as ‘Neo-Platonism’.

Allama Iqbal also adopted this concept of ‘Ishq’. Iqbal’s concept of ‘Khudi’ has its origins in the work of German Philosopher Fitsche whose ‘ego’ with some modifications, became ‘khudi’ for Iqbal. Iqbal adopted French Philosopher Bergson’s concept of ‘intuition’ in just as it is form.

So reasons for the backwardness of Muslim societies are that they have left up their thirst for search for truth, knowledge and wisdom. They have been trapped into the habit of worshiping the idea of their glorious past and they are not finding any suitable starting point for meeting the challenges of contemporary world.

And your other post about the failures of US foreign policies is really good, informative and sufficiently elaborative. I thank you for sharing your this crucial analytical work with us.

Thanks!

__________________
Where is the SIGNATURE....????

I tried my best to read all this. I placed some damn 30 minutes but couldn't finish it all .

If you guys could limit the replies, poor men like me would also step in.

Regards,

__________________
"The race is not over because I haven't won yet."

Adil Memon
Police Service of Pakistan (P.S.P)
37th Common Training Program

Yes ideologically whole Muslim Ummah is one single nation. But practically it is not so. Practical scenario is whole different from ideal state of affairs. If I say that Osama is struggling for his nationalistic ambitions, here I am NOT using the term ‘nationalism’ in its ideological sense. I am using it in practical sense. Practically Arab nations may prefer Indian stance about Kashmir issue, to that of Pakistan’s. Surely, in these types of matters, ‘nationalism’ in the ‘practical’ sense would be at work. USA companies offer more profits. So ‘practically’ it is beneficial for Saudi Arabia to invest its wealth in American businesses. I could not open your link so I am still unable to understand how our unity can make us strong whereas we already have a functional religion based International Organization of Islamic Countries. I think still Muslim countries feel more belongingness for other Muslim countries than any other let’s say Christian country would feel belongingness for any other Christian country. So what else we can hope of unity? If Europe is united today, IT IS NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR COMMON RELIGION. But they do have common practical interests.
Apparent silly attitude of Osama is explainable from both these angles i.e. firstly by just considering him a ‘practical’ nationalist and secondly by considering him ‘indirect ally’. I still prefer 1st assumption on such grounds that at first, Osama was the ‘direct ally’ of USA. Then he turned out to be ‘direct enemy’ AFTER WHEN US ARMY ENTERED HIS OWN TERRITORY OF SAUDI LAND with the view to punish Iraq. Remember that before 9/11, Osama was charged of being involved in bomb blasts in US embassies in African countries. Point to be remembered is that those bombs blasted exact on the day of eighth anniversary of US first attack on Iraq. So it is more likely that ambitions of territorial type nationalism were at work behind those bomb blasts

Affirmative, your points are pretty solid and digestible. Talking about the term ideology, I better say that once an ideology won’t get adopted practically, it’ll last just as an ideology and nothing more, and that what’s going nowadays. No doubt that anti Muslim forces are intensely activating on the stance of “DIVIDE AND RULE”, in tucker, we have also forgotten this reality that “UNITED WE WIN, DIVIDED WE FALL”. The entire Muslim Ummah is simply nothing without unity and proper strategy.
There are near about 58 countries in OIC, and among them mutual trade is hardly 17% while the left over 87% is carried out with that of occidentals. Only because they offer best investment ground with dirriffic environment. Do you know Sir; that who is the founder of the banking system that is current running in the entire world? No one else except Jews, they were Jews who introduce the stock exchange system, banking system fully encircled by usury, business institutes, insurance companies, investments corporations, multinational companies, business schools and franchises. It’s the major characteristic of Jews that they never do job, if you speculate then you will come to know that near about 98% of Jews are business holders. Nowadays, the entire world is cobwebbed with this attractive network as they offer profitable figures.
We are under damn influence of this system, that’s the reason why Islamic banking system has almost expunged. And thus it results worst economic misbalance in entire Muslim world,
We have to exercise for the establishment of Islamic ideology in each and every sector of ours; as if we won’t then I’m afraid, we cannot win this battle (God forbids).
The above text that I have so written is just to mention this, that, Jews had framed a long term strategy which carries financial and scientific sectors as well, and I think it is known to everybody that an attractive monetary system have great magnetic force. Thus rich Muslim countries are becoming richest and subjects of poor countries are living below poverty line. Plus, as you said that Christian countries are united not on the basis of religion but because of their economical interest. Well, I definitely agree with your point, but I better say that
I’ve simply used the term “united” in my previous post and hadn’t asserted that the subjective unity is religious one. Thus once again I would like to mention that it’s one of the parts of Jewish shrewd tactics, they need to bring unity and finance is the best way of placing closure, the outstanding nexus that has so enhanced their bond energy, and thus now they are governing us.
What else Usama had done, what he’s doing and what he is willing to do, yet all these aspects have brought nothing but ravage of Islamic society and the subjective ideology, his practical nationalism is ruining our position at regional as well as at international level. This thing isn’t strange that Jews want to use us; the tragedy is this that we Muslims have yet proved ourselves the tenderest combo by mutilating our religious laws and regulations. Bin ladens’ extremism has proved Usama as an “indirect ally” of US along with being a mere nationalist. Now it’s our choice which title do we choose.

One thing more that I would like to mention,,,,,,,,,, a year ago when it was asked by Mullah Mohammad Anas, who is a Taliban leader and was in Ghazni at that time that why Usama Bin Laden sent video tape against Bush a day before 2004 US elections? Then on reply he first delivered his smile and then said that because they wanted Bush to win those elections. On asking the subjective reason he said that Bush is that person who provided them a new ground “Iraq”, his policies has enhanced global hate for US, that’s the reason why they want bush to rule further long, as bush is that subject who can devastate US.
Thus regarding to this concept he proclaimed Bush as Al-Qaida’s benefactor. And the failure of Bush’s foreign policy that I’ve mentioned in my last post also depicts that sooner or later US would suffer in the same manner like that of USSR.
So in light of this fact the policies of US and Al-Qaida are proving them extremists and jossers.

Personally US by itself has no danger from Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern territories, it merely attacked on Saudi Arabia and Iraq only because its policy makers are Jews, and Jews want prosperity and firmness of Israel. Its further given in an article written by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt whose reference I have already given in my second last thread, there they said,

”Israel has become a sort of burden for US, and the reason why
it is suffering terrorism is nothing but its favoritism towards Israeli
policies.”
Well these are the words which are delivered by American nationalists.
Thus this thing clears that Jews are using both Muslim and US fronts to extract their so required concerns.



I here do not agree to your point that true Muslim will never kill innocent people who have nothing to do with the war by means of fidai bombing. It may be true that Osama may actually be a hidden ally of USA. But Osama himself is NOT any fidai bomber. He just USES some ardent, fanatic and ready to die ‘fidai bombers’. Can you say that those ACTUAL ready to die fidai bombers are also hidden or indirect allies of USA????? Can you say that those ACTUAL fidai bombers do not kill their own selves for the ‘cause’ of Islam, obviously in their own feelings?????????????
Those who are ready to kill their own selves for the cause of Islam, why cannot be considered to be true Muslims? What I think is that THEY ARE TRUE MUSLIMS BUT THEY ARE IGNORANT MUSLIMS. They are ignorant because they insist on such a strategy for the cause of Islam, which not only is not evident in the light of true spirit of Islamic teachings but also is giving poisonous effects to the real cause of Islam.



Now here you have admitted by yourself that fidai blasts are giving poisonous effects to the real cause of Islam. Those subjects who are responsible to subvert Islam image, how can you consider them true Muslims? Even a school child knows that suicide is not allowed in Islam, for instance if somebody ties detonating stuff on his belly, enters in public market and blasts himself that results deaths of non-combatants, then what do you think, shall we consider that deed righteous and upright? Or do you think that subject who committed that crime is a true Muslim, as he has killed non-Muslim civilians on the name of Jihad?

In 2004, an 18 years old Palestinian boy Hasan Hotiri blasted himself in a disco club of Tel-Aviv. Do you think it is a correct format of Jihad? People who are doing such actions have simply lost sense of segregation between right and wrong, as they are fully brain washed, Jihad doesn’t teach us to kill non-combatants even if they belong to our antagonist nation, because if this thing had allowed in Islam then NABI PAK (PBUH) would have killed kuffar after conquering Makka.

Yes one can blast himself and could lay his life in this style only in crucial situations when there isn’t any other way left, number of Pakistani soldiers had presented such examples in wars of 1965 and 1971 the most familiar e.g. is that of Rashid Minhas.
What I want to say that if full of spirit and ready to die Muslims want to lay their lives then it will be much better if they should blast themselves in enemies cantonments and garrisons instead that of public places as this thing strongly condemned by various Muslim religious scholars of the entire world.
The methods like suicide bombings are generally adopted by weak nations, we are backward in all respects regarding science and technology, industry, weapon sector and much else. Once we’ll try to work out on such aspects, then we don’t need to adopt such options, which are responsible to effect our religious position.
Definitely Usama is not fidai bomber, as if he was then Al-Qaida would celebrate his death anniversary every year. He is one, who promoted fidai bombing, and then later it circulated among other jihadi group like Hizbullah, Hamas, Mehdi Malaysia etc, so off course he is responsible to mutilate Islamic ideology, so how can u consider him true Muslim?
In such regards you can read my thread “Reasons behind peacelessness in Muslim society”, whenever you find respective time for it.




But I did not say that you keep on wearing those specs for all the time, like other major nations do. What I said was just that you just take a tour of this spectacular vision in order to UNDERSTAND why other major nations cannot see anything unethical in the policies and actions of USA.


The visionary angle of entire MAJOR NATIONS that you have made emphatic and wanted us to speculate in the same format momentarily; has already been cleared from my side at back that basically major nations are looking with the sight of Jews, and emphasizing us to view with their specs means that you want us to observe the current situation in Jewish format, which simply we don’t want to do.



Your final conclusion is, “bad should be called bad, and stupid should be called stupid.”
Now take this conclusion of yours in your hands and go to any other major nation. What you shall say? You shall say, “America is bad because it is bad”. Believe me, no one shall accept your point of view.


What I mentioned bad are unjust attitude and policies of US administration not the US nation. And no doubt its international policies is letting its graph down, even its citizens are now turning against its policies, for evidence you can read the latest observation that has published in one of the US magazine “Wall Street”, there it is given that near about one third Americans are against their government policies.
Mr. Mecna Mara, who was US foreign minister during the times of President Canedy and President Johnson and was also appointed as president of World Bank stated last year that the present US policies are highly cheap, totally against the law, militarily non-essential and pretty troublesome for the entire world.

Ex-foreign minister Ms. Mediline Albright stated last year that US has committed worst mistake by attacking in Iraq. Mr. Colin Powel also said that he was against such military action, it was Duck Chine who made Bush fool.
Few days ago six retired generals who were destined on responsible positions in Iraq along with including Mr. Anthony Zany who is an ex leader of US central command declared the US foreign policy totally bogus and flop and thus in this regards they insisted Bush to fire Donald Ramesfield.
Three days ago Peter Goss the US defense secretary has resigned too, only because he couldn’t resist the typical situation that has so generated due to rubbish US policies.

And it is known to all of us that it’s not the people who represent their country
in international politics; it’s the country’s leadership and its policies, which are the standard bearer of the respective representation. Once the leadership will be worst then it will ruin the image of entire nation, and that what’s happening with US.



In order to convince others that USA is bad, you would need to show some those aspects of USA, which could not be censored even by those specs of other major nations.



I have already discussed some of those aspects in my last post.



If you try to look deeply into the matters, which you have pointed out in this para, you shall find that it has happened due to some those policies of Bush Administration WHICH COULD NOT BE CENSORED BY THE SPECS WHICH USA’s OWN PEOPLE WEAR. And this is exactly what I wanted to explain. Now it is general perception that what USA did in Iraq was in clear contrast with USA’s own struggle of ‘war against terrorism’. So people are going against their government mainly due to this reason because this thing clearly went against their own value system. What I want to explain is exactly the same. The right effective policy, in my assessment, would be to repeatedly raise and highlight this or any other similar issue (i.e. which could not be censored by specs of other nations) on every international forum with the view to ethically isolate USA in various international matters. I already have discussed in detail, how we can ethically isolate a superpower country in this thread: <http://www.cssforum.com.pk/thread3330.html>


Baraber bolay aap, and I’ll definitely read the so given link of yours as soon as I’ll be able to grab some leisure hours INSHA ALLAH.



Well but I do not think that my assertions fall into the category of contrapositivity. As per my memory, what I listened about this thing was that in this method, if we want to prove the truth of an assertion, we first suppose that the statement actually is false. Then we see and evaluate the possible outcome of this supposition. If the so outcome is found out to be quite absurd, then we conclude that our original assumption was wrong in fact. If our original assumption was wrong, it means that original assertion was not false. If original assertion was not false then it means that it was true in fact. In this way we prove the truth of a given assertion.

I have not used this method in my assertions. My method was a simple logic, which can be successfully applied in the study of various social phenomena also.


A thing which is against the nature and fully repugnant to universal roots; but is considered not bad in the sight of bearers or holders of that thing. Then certainly they won’t accept this truth that their adoption is not righteous. Then its only contrapositivity that can convince them that the respective adoption is one of the worst values.
There isn’t any objection that what else Allah has declared bad for us is definitely harmful for entire humanity, that’s the reason why the natives are now accepting this truth.



Agree in that the old values in western societies are still in function but to just some extent and also in much modified form. We should promote our own values along with strong rational footings so that others may become able to see the beauty and goodness of our values.


100% positive.


This point of view that westerns have taken all the things from our religious teachings is rather traditional and most of the times, it is promoted just blindly. I can see no solid basis for this point of view. If westerns have taken all the things from our religious teachings then they should not possess those social evils, which they do possess. Secondly if they really have found the true spirit of our religion then we should not have any objection in living under their leadership.

For unknown reasons, our mainstream education system as well as madarassah education system, both intentionally keep us away from knowing this fact that westerns do possess their own sources of ethical outlook of the world, which resembles to that of ours in some respects but the resemblance is just superficial.

Apart from ethical type teachings of ancient religions, the first intellectuals who imparted profound influences on ethical outlook of west were Socrates and Plato. Socrates attempted to elaborate the meanings of virtue, truth, justice etc. Plato came up with his doctrine of objective existence of ethical and moral codes and values/ standards.

Aristotle happened to be more like a scientist rather than teacher of ethics. There was no concept of international brotherhood up till that time. Plato and Aristotle tried to legitimize slavery in their respective styles. But the emergence of Roman Empire in 1st century AD gave a whole new outlook to mankind. Philosophies like Stoicism and Epicureanism emerged in that period. These were ethical type philosophies in essence. It was Stoics who first reacted against slavery and propounded the idea of universal brotherhood of humanity. Epicureans asserted that end goal before individuals should be of getting ‘intellectual pleasure’ which they could get through their thirst for knowledge and wisdom.

That Roman Empire was consisted of various city-states. For the better management of affairs of cities, Roman administrators realized the importance of ‘honesty’ in the inter-relationships of city people. So they adopted this social value of ‘honesty’ because it happened to be PRACTICALLY more beneficial for them.

Apart from the teachings of Bible and Engeal, teachings of many other religious philosophers (better known as ‘scholastics’) also shaped the ethical outlook of west unto a considerable extent. St. Augustine and St. Aquinas developed their own ethical doctrines. Doctrines of St. Aquinas later on became the official doctrines of medieval Europe.

During the renaissance period, many rational philosophers also came up with their own ethical doctrines. Spinoza, for instance, made a theory of ethics based on the principles of geometry. Various types of philosophies such as materialism, idealism, rationalism, realism, nominalism etc. etc. all had their corresponding results about the ethical outlook of life.

Yes it is true that west got many things from the teachings of Islam also but it is just baseless to say that all positive aspects of west originated in the teachings of Islam.

So reasons for the backwardness of Muslim societies are that they have left up their thirst for search for truth, knowledge and wisdom. They have been trapped into the habit of worshiping the idea of their glorious past and they are not finding any suitable starting point for meeting the challenges of contemporary world.




Allah ray, just a small word “all” in hasty has made you to mention a detail philosophical history, really its quiet informative, thanks for sharing this with us.

What else you have written in starting paragraphs is undeniable. As we all know that rectitude is eternal since the time of its genesis. The terms honesty, sincerity, truthfulness, dutifulness, modesty etc had already mentioned in Zaboor, Bible, Exodus, Deuteronomy and Genesis of Torah and other revealed volumes. But now they don’t exist in their original form. What else Quran Kareem says is certain and unchangeable and that’s what non-Muslim scholars have too admitted. Our value system in every field and sector is hundred percent ideal and free from errors only because of the fact that it is so proposed by Quran and Sunnah, and that’s what the entire worldly experts accept it.
I also didn’t mean to say that west has adopted every positive aspect of Quran, what I need to say was that those aspect and figures that could bring prosperity, durability and firmness is various development sectors have so adopted by west at some what extent, and that’s not what only I say, this is thing that is asserted by Mr. George Playfield who is a research scholar of Human studies and teaches in university of Virginia, further this thing is mentioned by Mr. Saleem Yazdani a well known columnist and analyst. So I better say that this thing hasn’t spread blindly.



And it is equally important to mention that Western teachings also drew many impressions on the Muslim outlook of ethics. For example Muslim Sufis’ concepts of ‘Ishq-e-Haqiqi’, ‘fana-fi-Allah’ etc. has the roots in 1st Century AD’s philosophy known as ‘Neo-Platonism’.



Look sir, the concepts of Ishq-e-haqiqi, fana-fi-Allah, khudi etc are those concepts, which exist since the time of human origin, it’s an intense feeling whose history is equally old as that of human history, man kept on exploring its depth since the time of its creation and still the search is going on. Whatever work our Aulia-e-karam did regarding the subjective concepts wasn’t under the inspiration of Neo-Platonism.
In short, such ideologies were raised in every human period; we cannot restrict any era as its founder or explorer.
But I would truly like to know about Neo-Platonism concept, hope you could share it with me.


And your other post about the failures of US foreign policies is really good, informative and sufficiently elaborative. I thank you for sharing your this crucial analytical work with us.


Inayat for appreciating my absurd effort.


FEE AMAN ALLAH

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Farangi teyra chehra do rangi,,,A'ankhein roshan dil zangi.