Originally Posted by aphrodite

Rann of Kutch, Chawinda op, Lahore Offensive. These didn’t defend you? Pakistan starting an offensive to regain Kashmir was audacious. It doesn’t matter if your enemy is larger than you. If that was the rule of war victory then the risk for Battle of Badr would never have been taken. Despite the first victory, the next one, at Uhad was a disaster. So you mean the muslims shouldn’t have tried it? Napoleon is still considered one of the best commanders, not Duke of Wellington, who despite a historic win at Waterloo is still looked down upon as a lousy General. All his life, Napoleon dreamt of defeating Britain and searched military as well as economic ways to do so- but all failed. But he tried and so he is immortalized for his courage, not for victories. However, all the above was another kind of warfare altogether. Today wars aren’t fought the same way. They are fought at many places in one go, and in 1965 several battles were fought. But by the end of it, Newsweek published an article hailing Pakistani attempts, valor, and declared the upper edge it had- in spite of unclear assessment of victory on either side. And I think you need to get your facts correct, because Pakistan never pressed for ceasefire in the UN-neither in 1948 (India did) nor in 1965. I have already talked abt Kargil, referring to books as well as recent Kargil Inquiry Commission by India. Im not trying to be over-zealous, but the fact is that despite Indian propaganda and Pakistani CIVILIAN leadership weakness, Kargil would have been a success for Pakistan. This time too, your cherished ‘elected’ reps warped it for us.



Wars, conflicts are a sad part of this world. More often than not, innocents have to bear the brunt along with soldiers- a few thousands die, so that millions stay alive. That’s law of nature. Many countries in the past and at present have a nation-wide military conscription. They make everyone fight, and many die too. What do you say about that? In Palestine today, they have several suicide bombers and many have been martyred. They too once wanted to live. Nations who are willing to subordinate freedom to Security, deserve neither freedom nor security- and I didn’t say that, Ted Roosevelt did.



I was watching a show today in which Americans were being questioned whether the OBL op was a setup. A sizable portion said, they doubted it, due to lack of evidence and incongruencies. I don’t know why you are readily accepting his existence there. If the army was really nurturing him there, they wouldn’t have left him unguarded or failed to reach there at once. Haqqani Network kyun hai Pakistan mai, iska jawaab buhat complex aur tassalli se sunne wala hai. But I guess you have a problem with reading posts longer than your thumb you cant have the cake and keep it too. But elsewhere in another post with a dodo, I have debated in detail why Pakistan needs Afghan Taliban- but not Pakistani Taliban. Karachi mai no-go areas woh hain jahan MQM aur ANP ke thugs, aur un ki aar main, kuch terrorists bhi rehte hain. Some time back there were talks of an army operation in Karachi. But your ‘democratic’ government, that didn’t want to offend the London Don, was the first one to oppose this suggestion. The media started condemning it, the people started criticizing it-calling it the ‘army’s’ bid to intervene once again. So, there is no other way to target these areas except an army operation which can get very nasty for all Karachiites. The army or rangers cannot take this decision, without the command of the Federal government. Rahi baat A-tan ko province banaane ki, A-tan toh Amreekiyon or Roosiyon ke hatthe nahi laga, Pakistaniyo ke kya lage ga. And your establishment knows it very well. They just want the most friendly government there so as to form a barrier, as well as fish out Indian presence there. This is where Haqqani network, Quetta shura and Hekmatyar comes in.



Well, I haven’t called anybody a ‘Ghaddar’ so kindly stop acting martyred- both you and Hamza. Agencies keep an eye on anything that has the potential to make a difference tomorrow.

And no, you people aren’t criticizing the military out of love for it. Your criticism is restrained to what media has projected to you. Accountability of the corrupt, sure that needs to be done. And the past month has been a result of only those few individuals. But dragging the entire institution down, I mean, on one hand you people claim you aren’t disregarding the entire army and on another hand you issue statements like, “ISI ke officers Majors ki wives ko gaariyon main ghumaane ke liye rehe gaye hain”. You don’t talk like this if you had really appreciated what it has done for the country. Is baat ko samjhein, for heavens sake, ke modern times main kabhi kisi qaum ko apni hi army ko gaaliyan dete hue suna hai ? The media abroad is so controlled, they aren’t allowed to release vital information concerning state institutions. Here its so out of control, this is why you guys can be molded to talk like this. Yesterday, I was watching Dunya News. They were reporting a news item that said the third PC 3 Orion has also been damaged and hit by a missile, and they were showing its pictures. They called in a famous defense analyst (cant rem the name) who told them that the fuselage hasn’t been hit, and its only 30% damaged- the jet will fly again soon. But after this, the news reel down below read, “ Third Orion damaged, incapable of flying again”. And to a Pakistani like you, this is even more bad news, even more reason to talk derogatory. As I said earlier, ignorance of the wrath that hasn’t befallen you, takes that burden off you too.

And as far as Hamza’s comment on “members here on ISI payroll”, lets just say Im ignoring some MI-6 recruits who arent playing Bond too well either. So call it a day, shall we?

Originally Posted by m.furqan08

"Karachi mai no-go areas woh hain jahan MQM aur ANP ke thugs, aur un ki aar main, kuch terrorists bhi rehte hain. Some time back there were talks of an army operation in Karachi. But your ‘democratic’ government, that didn’t want to offend the London Don, was the first one to oppose this suggestion. The media started condemning it, the people started criticizing it-calling it the ‘army’s’ bid to intervene once again. So, there is no other way to target these areas except an army operation which can get very nasty for all Karachiites. The army or rangers cannot take this decision, without the command of the Federal government."

1990's ma hamay ya bataya gaya ka karachi ma mulk dushman anasar ka against operation kya ja raha ha jo karachi ko mulks sa alag karna chahtay thay,ok good karo operation.

Our police men participate in it with courage and zeal.Now in 1999 our generals took the power and all those police men who participated in the operation were killed in the era in which our generals ruled.Now not a single police man has the courage to participate in the operation against any party,this has also been admitted by our interior minister.Can you please answer this.Who is responsible for this?Police or generals who got perks and privileges in the name of national security?

Originally Posted by khanbaba512

Us time majors ki bori band lashien mili thi is lye operation hogya tha..abi srf aam admi maray ja rha ha ..thats the diffrence...

Originally Posted by polaris

log keh rahey hain ke mulk ke halaat sahe nai, is critical time main hamari masoom fouj aur agenciyon ko kuch na kaha jaye kyun k yeh un ka image kharab karney ke brabar hai kyu k yahe tu west aur neighbouring east ki chaal hai.. par bhayon aap yeh kyun bhool jatey ho ke itney mudato ke baad tu yeh gin larkhara kar samney aaya hai.. aur agar aaj bhi botal main band nahi kia gaya tu phir kub kia jaye ga!!??

Originally Posted by khanbaba512

Its 3;13 in the morning so i didn't have the energy to comment on your post as required..but i want to ask some questions from you because you said we were "brain washed" by our media , and exaggerated the whole scenario..If foriegn media is questioning that whether the operation GIRONIMO was a setup ..but i failed to understand why our army accepted this ?? if it was a setup then our Army should jump first to say that this is a pre-planned operation to find an excuse against us but they haven't..about MQM forc..well one of the fellows posted the video of aslam baig in which he confessed that we made the MQM..we haven't said anything about this..And thanks for the useful post in which you described why we need Taliban..it was very helpful for all the CSS aspirants..thumbs up for you..we all know it..i am sure you have consulted a Taliban for that useful post because you didn't believe what the media reports..

Originally Posted by m.furqan08

"Karachi mai no-go areas woh hain jahan MQM aur ANP ke thugs, aur un ki aar main, kuch terrorists bhi rehte hain. Some time back there were talks of an army operation in Karachi. But your ‘democratic’ government, that didn’t want to offend the London Don, was the first one to oppose this suggestion. The media started condemning it, the people started criticizing it-calling it the ‘army’s’ bid to intervene once again. So, there is no other way to target these areas except an army operation which can get very nasty for all Karachiites. The army or rangers cannot take this decision, without the command of the Federal government."

1990's ma hamay ya bataya gaya ka karachi ma mulk dushman anasar ka against operation kya ja raha ha jo karachi ko mulks sa alag karna chahtay thay,ok good karo operation.

Our police men participate in it with courage and zeal.Now in 1999 our generals took the power and all those police men who participated in the operation were killed in the era in which our generals ruled.Now not a single police man has the courage to participate in the operation against any party,this has also been admitted by our interior minister.Can you please answer this.Who is responsible for this?Police or generals who got perks and privileges in the name of national security?

Originally Posted by mhmmdkashif

Major Kaleem Case you talking about

Originally Posted by aphrodite

Read what I have to say about accountability of Generals. Honi to chahiye, lekin internally. The military has already formed an inquiry commission that is giving feedback. They themselves have pointed out to inside help of some naval officers, have made several arrests including those of an ex-commando and 2 that were directly involved in the conspiracy. They are already creating a strategy to secure their bases effectively. Aur kya chahiye aapko? If ur expecting to know all the dirty details concerning the military, I don’t think we deserve to know. But they DO know. Afterall inquiry ke baad hi pata chali buhat sari details- terrorists kahan se aaye, beech mai kya kiya, footprints, forensic experts etc. You dont do your dirty laundry for everyone to see.

People are also pointing out to Saleem Shahzad's murder. He may be carrying information proving the involvement of naval officers at Mehran base or more. They say he was receiving threats and being asked to withdraw all work on Mehran Base attack. When he didnt affirm, the agencies perhaps did kidnap and kill him. Until now the story looks like a wolf eating Red riding hood. But what if that story had been published? That would have jeopardized the already flailing international scrutiny on Pakistan's nuclear safety. Kya prove hota? Ke hamaari saari fauj bikaaoo hai? Think about it. In the last year some 14 journalists have been killed or tortured. But Hillary Clinton lashed out a statement for this one.