everyone has his own views and enjoys freedom of expression.every1 can express his view-point. but this is a totally awkward approach to call someone stupid just becoz you do not agree with what the other guy said. this is the extremist approach. i advise u brotherly to avoid this.

moreover, this thread has lost its purpose. no senior member likes to go thru some of the last pages of this thread. we are all feeling ashamed on finding some people immature here. i really observed here that success in CSS is not the ultimate criterion of someone's maturity.

ALLAH HAFIZ all !
TCz

Army lovers,or wo log jo part hain bureaucracy ka ub,un me farak hey..Ap ek institution me shamil honey wale logon k sa,mne baith k bar bar ussey bura kahe ja rhe ho,kahe ja rhe ho,wo kahan tk sunen gey??2,3 maheeney hum sunte rhe na janab?kubhi tw patience jawab dayti he na..
I do not say k Bureaucracy farishton ki jamat hey..everybody knows there are corrupt elements in it..Lekin ussey musalsal ek failed institution se compare kia ja rha hey or yahan logon ko ye bawar krane ki koshish ki ja rhi he k Civil officers saarey jahil,saarey nalayak,incapable,loserz or political ladder k through uuper puhunchne wale he..Jub k army saari bht hi able,intellectual or competitive logon se bni he(Isliye aj tk shyd koi jung nahy jeet ski)..khamakha me jub ek institution ko degrade kia jayga doosrey se compare kr k,tw ussey defend kurne k lye log medan me tw ayen ge na janab..As I said,we know that there are corrupt elements in bureaucracy,but ye log jo respect hi nahy kurte civil service and is k part logon ki,why are they trying to get into it..
Criticize krein,but ek ese institution k saath compare kr k nahy jis k 'appne palle kakh nahy he'..

__________________
I shall either find a way,or make one
'Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa'

@mukt

I would have loved to fall iin this debate, had I found anything but sheer rhetoric on your part. When we talk in terms of facts and figures, you don't simply lend your ear to it. Where we establish a thousand examples from history you come up with your rhetoric, devoid of any sense or logic. By the way what is it that you want me to talk about?

g janab civil servants ko army k sath compare karna aur especially un k muqabalay ma degrade karna aik nihayat hee ghalt fail hai(and vice versa) jis sa ijtanab karna chahiye.aur shayad ab ma ap kesa feel kar rahey hon gey wo sab parh kar ye samajh sakta hon


bureaucracy and army both are institutions of PAK and both should be respectful to us all.(and it does not in any way mean that the right of criticism should be snatched from anyone against any institution)


stay blessed MR. DMGian

__________________
Puppet,Slave,Lover

I was not calling candidguy a stupid, maybe you should read properly. Secondly, If you don't call stupid a stupid, then what do you call him? If everyone has his/her own view point, then no words including stupid should be used because There will be no universal stupid on earth because what might be stupid for you might not be stupid for me and vice versa.

Quote:

moreover, this thread has lost its purpose. no senior member likes to go thru some of the last pages of this thread. we are all feeling ashamed on finding some people immature here. i really observed here that success in CSS is not the ultimate criterion of someone's maturity. ALLAH HAFIZ all ! TCz

It appears defending the undefendable and blind beliefs are ULTIMATE criterion of someone's maturity? That's what one can interpret from what you said (In context) heh


You and your friend aphordite failed to answer my questions instead came up with a bunch of copy pastes (he/she in particular). I mentioned and proved, not only from neutral sources but ALSO FROM OUR VERY OWN SOURCES which were biased (as they mentioned less numbers) but even then they couldn't deny the fact that our army was rightly accused. Then what facts and figures do you want to talk about? Come on dude, do you even read my posts?



MJKHAN : To make a long story short, How can you debate against the fact that CSPs (In general) are more Intelligent than the army officers (In general). No doubt exceptions are there but we are talking about general terms. Secondly, It was aprohdite who started the comparison and we rightly answered. Answer one question please, Clearing ISSB is easy or CSS? If you're physically fit and you are an below average IQ person, you can clear ISSB very easily and do I need to explain how is it for the CSS? I hope you know that better than me.

Lets look at this point-wise:

• You are sadly mistaken, and I don’t know what kind of people have been telling you of stories of civil servants acting like masters (or you’re just beefing up stories to support your hollow argument). Sure they had immense power just like they do today, but it was only after Bhutto’s civil services reforms later, that their status was catapulted. Before 1970’s civil servants still weren’t too corrupt (if they were they would do so clandestinely so that no one would know lest their reputation is tarnished), they still had regard for their country’s interests, they still worked. A common man still had access to civil servants and I can quote several incidences to you. After this period, the bureaucracy was highly politicized and this peaked in the 1990’s. With politicization, deteriorating state of affairs, many bureaucrats started minting money and sending it to foreign investments or safekeeping.

Transparency international’s 2009 report claims that inside Pakistan, the bureaucracy is THE SINGLE MOST CORRUPT INSTITUTION, followed by law enforcement agencies and then judiciary. Lastly, the political parties were mentioned. Btw, the army didn’t make it to this list…Aww! You talk of accountability of the army? Nab the corrupt top-notch bureaucracy first.

• You said, other professionals also have that air of excellence about them. Lol. Maybe in civilized nations. Well this is Pakistan, and the bureaucrats are all powerful here. Here, the same immense power is used to subdue people, make arbitrary decisions, receive plots and stock options in lucrative places. And despite all that if they performed, I would still salute them. And do you really think a doctor, engineer or lawyer is Pakistan after passing their exams have the same degree of superiority about them? LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE! They may be proud of their achievement but such poor folk are unsure of their future. The CSP’s aren’t. Again, Ive never claimed ALL bureaucrats are like that. But unfortunately most are. I too like the idea of bureaucracy and so aspire for it. But not as an assault weapon. It’s an indispensable part of nation-building and should be used exclusively for that. Not for politicking that has become the norm.
• circumstances in which bureaucrats work in rural areas are justified when they’ve got Vigos, DHA villas, and diamond encrusted Patek Phillippe’s to fall back on. Its like any other investment for them, and hey, it doesn’t cost them a buck! Its also silly of you to give me examples of batmen and lawn enclosures earlier on. Compared to today, those were sweet times. They don’t have a batman today, but they are in a position to buy out 10 people like you and me. So hold those nonsensical examples.
• further, I never claimed that all who pass CSP’s are nalayek. Although I will re-iterate again that many who do, aren’t too bright either and that passing CSS shouldn’t be a benchmark of a brilliant mind. You yourself have rot-learnt a great deal of that text. Doesn’t require brilliance. Just requires a good memory. If you empty your mind of pre-conceived notions and a whole lot of filth, perhaps then you would think clearer. Having said that, not all who pass the exam are duffers, I reserve my comments about you. Its for your own best.
• a guy I know, now posted as ASP in rural Sindh, had FLUNKED CSS exam twice, not even clearing the written. The third year, he simply locked himself up at home and rot-learnt hard throughout. He devoured the entire internet for his interview. This did require hard work on his part. But the guy just wasn’t BRILLIANT. Hard working, yes, but not intelligent. He is a great human being, but lets just say, the wisdom doesn’t show when random discussion wrt issues is started with him.
• about that schizophrenia of urz regarding a CSS insurance policy. As far as I am concerned, I am not intimidated by it. I am AWARE of its POWER to make a change however. That’s a difference, upstarts don’t really understand. So even if I make it IA, my affiliation is not going to affect my views about this institution. Instead I am going to use my knowledge of these shortcomings to improve stuff, if Allah gives me the chance to. Passing this exam alone doesn’t excite me. The power to ‘change’ is what excites me. But you shouldn’t bother, because your ambitions are very basic in nature. And if they are beyond it- then ask yourself what you ACTUALLY want to do by doing CSS. And don’t give that diplomatic answer you gave to your interviewers.
• Complex 2 tarah ke hote hain. Inferiority complex. And superiority complex. The second one isn’t really a complex because it’s a state of mind relating to an ‘exaggerated self-perception’. Nevertheless, its a lot more unrealistic and vile than an inferiority complex. Your problem is the second one. And instead of lashing out behaviour correction advice to me, you need to check your own behaviour first. When you’ve done that, you’ll find me submissive to all your advice. I cant be any more honest than that. And you have a fair share of inferiority complex yourself. You’ve told me about my ‘crisp’ English many times yourself. Get a grip, cuz ive never judged people on their language skills. You’ve just proved that you do.
• No, nothing answered my stalking remark. I am still wondering at the intensity with which you’ve taken this debate with me and are willing to actually search my posts a gazillion months ago. And sorry, I don’t have the time to ‘stalk’ through your posts just to judge what kind of a human you are. These ensuing posts are quite descriptive, Thank you very much.
• About my achievements. If you would clear that haze around you which spells that achievement is judged by passing an exam, you will also have other avenues for achievements open. I haven’t challenged you regarding your other achievements in life but you doing the same speaks greatly of your shallow character. Whatever achievements I have done so far, have affected not only my own person but many others. But unlike you, I don’t repeat that statement every 3 sentences. And that, is mark of a complexed personality. Apne liye to sab hi achieve kar lete hain. Achievement who hoti hai jo ke eik se zyada logo ko affect kare. Not your idea of ‘achievements’ that stops at a decent bread and butter for yourself.
• Abba Ji wali baat kisko kahi? AAPKO. Why? Because you are ill-mannered enough to warrant such talk. Mujhe bhi ungli terhi karni aati hai. If you’re within your limits, you’ll find me even more humble. But if you start taking over an undeserved status, it’ll fall flat onto your face, and I am going to ensure that. Who started this whole ‘harsh talk’ in the first place. Me or you? And yeah about those ‘threats’ you spewed. What are you going to do? Get me expelled from this forum? That’s the most you can do. Period. Lol, MQM in Karachi does the same. Prohibits anyone who happens to respond like it does. I seriously do think and hope, that this forum doesn’t function like the Mafioso. The Mods should be more worried about your totalitarian ways that THREAT people when all else fails.

However, first of all, any ‘just’ and honest Mod wont do that because YOU’VE JUST ABOUT SAID THE SAME KIND OF STUFF I HAVE. IN FACT, YOU TAKE THE CAKE FOR BEGINNING IT THE DIRTY WAY. However, if dirty games is your idea of winning- well, the victory isn’t really yours to celebrate. So knock off those threats. Aisi threat dein kisi ko jo yah toh doable ho yah kisi ko wakai nuksaan puhncha sakein. HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN THE WAY YOU SPOKE TO ME? CALLING ME A SWINE? If you demand respect, first deserve it. You used ‘that’ tone with me first. I have a right to retaliate equally. Kyun exclusive rights hain aapke badtameezi pe? Lastly, Abba ji, wasn’t referring to your Abba specifically. It was referring to a perceived ‘bloodlike relation’ you were claiming with bureaucracy. If you cant understand that bit, I really don’t care much.

• As Floydian had also pointed out, you should go back and re-read my posts because you lack an understanding of them. I don’t hate INSTITUTIONS. I hate the corrupt element in them. So I don’t hate bureaucracy. I simply carry some views regarding its individuals capability or honesty. That’s all.
• About the number of people ‘up against me’. Lets see who I have offended. People like Mukt who are basically against the idea of Pakistan or harbour separatist tendencies.. People like Polaris who speak on complex ‘defense’ related matters when they haven’t done enough research on it. People like you, who attack people unannounced simply because they have ‘to prove their superiority’ to the world. Are you blind, or have you not seen enough people who have seconded my opinion too? There is no reason for qualifiers to get offended. Those who do, well, I guess its our national trait too- we take things too personally without judging the reasons behind someone’s views. Discretion. That’s whats missing. So, Mr. RobinHood (an apt name for someone, who has taken on the responsibility of defending the lot, as if they didn’t know how to) “Bring it on”. Im referring to such bitter responses btw. And yeah, you yourself have tagged me a ‘rational (OMG) woman’ albeit sub-consciously. Ive never thought of myself as that, but if that is true, I can see people cant digest that!

Lastly. You know well this dirt track isn’t ending anytime soon. I am busy and perhaps you are too. We have better things to do. My posts on this forum are meant to give a view- I aint here to pick up fights. If there are meaningful debates in which both parties know how to exercise restraint and can ‘behave’ I am willing to go on for ages. But if all that’s left is to insult each other’s personal capabilities, I don’t want that, but rest assured, I WILL retaliate in defense. So, since I consider this getting even (you said what you had to, so did I), I take the first step in backing off. But I need you to agree to this proposition and sit back and relax too. If not-tough luck!

Thank God! Some people here still think wise. This is exactly what I have been saying all along. That these are extremely tough times, and lofty ideas of 'freedom of opinion' is going to make it worse. We are being played into certain hands without realizing and if we dont, Pakistan cannot take on anymore injuries- it will collapse. At a time when nearly all of our institutions are corrupt, the army still is protecting us. This is why Ahmed Shuja Pasha recently told the CIA chief on his visit to US, "My God is Allah, not America" and he made it clear to them, that he has only arrived because he was needed, and that he wasnt there to revoke the cancelled military aid. What followed were some dangerous threats from Americans and the atmosphere had become very severe. Now I am sorry, but which bureaucrat, politician has ever given such a shutup call to the US? And because i have been saying such stuff- people like Salik and Mukt have started all this mud-flinging.

I am just going to re-emphasize your point that 'everyone' has an opinion these days about defense matters. A few days ago when there was an explosion inside the ISB arms depo, everyone rushed to the venue and every minor journalist standing there was again bashing the army for its secretiveness. I mean, har cheez share karni wali nahi hoti. Military affairs, as ur aware, are very sensitive in nature.

Right now ....i believe our politician are biggest enemy of Pakistan.Those who just care about themselves.If things works according to our solid policies and according to "Islami jahmuria pakistan" and our politician deliver it with honestly..i think there shouldn't be any problem.War on terror-Taliban wasn't our war at all.Every one in west they care about themselves and their peoples they dont care about others.ONLY problem in Pakistan is the incapability of our politician....And after having so many years in trouble ..Pak too far behind to come up on the screen.....

According to me... The biggest enemy of Pakistan is ourselves. Pakistanis (nation) are enemy of their own. If we critically analyze the situation of Pakistan since 1947, corruption, mismanagement, bribery, misleading, leaving Islamic Laws and leaving Islam, leaving love for mother land, criticism on each other, keep doing mistakes again and again and then look on others for its correction and help, leaving own role and responsibilities, not facing the reality etc all are the part of our problems currently prevailing.

We always blame India, USA, Europe, Russia, Taliban, Politicians, etc our enemy. But one does not look upon the nation. What nation is doing?

We are our own enemy. There is a famous quote, "Khuda na aaj tak uss qoum (nation) ke halat nahi badli, naa ho khayal uss ko aap apni halat ka badalnay ka". ALLAM Iqbal also said it and same thing is said by ALLAH MIGHTY in the Holy Quran. Also it is mention in the Holy Quran that, "Yahood-o-Nasra (Kafir's and Hindus) are not your friend and they can't be (Almost same wording, May ALLAH ALMIGHTY forgive).

So we always says that the others are creating problems for us and our country is facing problems like terrorism, destabalization etc etc. FOr GOD sake people of Pakistan. wake up.. you are your own enemy. you give vote to same stupid pld politicians, whom you are checking since 1947, again and again. you are demanding help and money from other countries and institutes for your betterment. Your bureaucracy is your enemy, not showing love for country, your Police is fail to protect the common citizen, your forces are not able to protect your borders, your Agencies are playing under the hands of politicians and self made persons, your Army is always taking part in the matters of government, instead of doing borders protection. your all department are fail to show their good performance for developing the country (See floods situations of 2010, 2011, 2013, Energy problems, management issues etc). Every one is busy for earning the money and for self made personality. no one is sincere with this land which was obtained by facing a lot of troubles of several kinds in 1947. If there is a person, who wants to do some work for the country, Our big personalities hate that man and put him in darkness from all sides and put a lot of resistance in his way, so he leave that thing and leave country . Education is just became to earn money and nit to proper utilize for the betterment of country, Media is playing against the country. Judiciary is playing a childish behavior and games. etc. (There are many other points on which I can write here and prove to all of you that we are our own enemy.)

We have lost our integrity. We are Muslims by name. We have left the Islam and just playing with it. we lost our history. What we were, and from where we came. (Study the history)

In over all, we all are not loyal with Pakistan. We are our own enemy. If we want to develop our selves in our own eyes and in the world, then each of have to play a positive role, by lefting the caste, family, class, culture, etc.
We have to become a nation and all 5 provinces (Punjab, KPK, Sindh, Gilgit-Baltistan and Balochistan) including FATA and other areas should become unite and become a united power of the time. If we all do this and become one nation, then Pakistan can face any challenge like Terrorism, Corruption, Economy problems, wars, illness, etc.etc and then we d can also face any enemy like India, Israel, USA, Russia, etc.

Now it is the time to wake up and become some thing. Muslims, it is the time of wake up. We Muslims are facing many problems in the world.

I am agree with many points above mentioned by respected fellow, but the above mentioned points by me are main concern of the time. So Please have a look on these also deeply.

Regards.

__________________
When you want to achieve a high goal.... Then remember...
Every thing is fair in Love and War.........

Pakistan's no.1 enemies r its corrupt politicians n high officials...