True, sketching out framework is more difficult than just portraying the picture of bad governance because of its technicality. But we can come up with the reforms after having studied the case. Coming to the point whether Pakistan is an Islamic state and if the governance should be discussed in Islamic connotations, I will say YES, because Pakistan's ideology is based on Islamic principles and fundamentals. The roots of our ideology can be traced back to two-nation theory proposed by Sir Syed Ahmad Khan. The theory as we all know laid down the foundations of the struggle for the separate state of Indian Muslims ( ie Pakistan ) which later transformed into Pakistan's ideology. The element of Islam was central to two nation theory. Therefore, the ensued discourse over governance without Islamic references here is incomplete. That's a completely different and unfortunate saga of Pakistan's history that Islam is practiced on tertiary level- it is in name only, not in full practice. But you have quoted Islam quite lucidly in your post above, the ijtehad with reference to Iran being the best bit. I would put across my personal view of Ijtehad with regard to the comparison between Iranian and Pakistani nations. I personally believe that Iranian are a strong and brave nation, whereas we are not. The reason why Ijtehad worked for the Iranian with the ensued revolution is because they accepted the change as one unit. In other words, they have proved to be a nation in true sense of terms by manifesting its nationality and when compared with Pakistan, both are as different as chalk and cheese. Unfortunately, the voices of our country's units are different. We have rarely manifested ourselves as a nation, which leads us to become a fractured nation with less or unclear vision and nonchalance attitude. Therefore, the chances of Ijtehad to work for Pakistan are less. Yes I agree with you that Islamic caliphate system and modern democratic system cannot be conflated. The principles of modern democracy and Islam rarely seem to converge at any point in connection with governance. The former is a man made system fraught with several flaws and drawbacks whereas the later is divine, time-tested and proven and thoroughly perfect. Islamic mode of governance is not praised and preferred because Pakistan is a Muslim country but because it proves to be the most viable governance as it did in during the times of four rightly guided caliphs of Islam- Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA), Hazrat Umar (RA), Hazrat Usman (RA) and Hazrat Ali (RA).
Well yes! I am all set to discuss the framework starting from the land reforms first. We need reforms in Land Administration as it has been ranked as the top most corrupt department in Pakistan according to TI's report of 2011. Land reforms we all know can put an end to monopoly of the elite class (ie the major landowners in Pakistan) and the farmers can become prosperous and land will be distributed among all sectors of society which in turn will boost future economic growth. Land reforms in Pakistan have a long and somewhat chequered history. Although, there have been limited reforms since inception of the country. Before 1947, even the British had less of an interest in the matter as they relied on the support of several influential landlords. However, major reforms yet took place in three different stages; the first during Ayub Khan`s martial law in 1959; the second and third during Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto`s rule in the 1970s.
The suggestion that you have put forward sounds like a viable one, but I guess it is still not going to work because we need to know who actually government is when it comes to implementation of a law? We all know a certain clique of the same landlords make the most part of the government set up. They are again going to hamper its implementation. And yes you are right that the role of media and judiciary is crucial here. I will be able to better debate the land reforms after having studied the case in detail. So expect me sharing more soon...

regards,

I am staunch creatique of our educational system which really has to do with certain ideologues.what we are? We can not reply inclusively.what is two nation theory or what are fundamentals?? We can not reply but says "pakistan is islamic state based on two nation tneory.what parameters parallel two nation theory with secular state.Islamic state adheres each member to follow islam at least .pakistan has nothing to do with Islam but with muslims.Quaid thought for Muslims not for Islam and Iqbal thought for Islam specifically.two nation theory stands for muslims not for Islam...



Like our educational system we have Islamic legislation based on shari'a and pakistani on iternational standards. I will cite one example women can not divorce acc to Islam but acc to pakistani law it can. We have dual standards .when ZAB was executed who was not given immunity according to article 58 of constitution but now CJ,PM and President are immune. This is our legislation which is totally corrupt and honour goes to parliamentarians who do not know the ABC of Islam,can't readQuran but , able to introducd laws...

What are fundamentals of Islam???? You know ? If yes then tell me.. ISlAMIC FUNDAMENTALS stands for moslem fandamentalism. I a'int support this type because this has made us deaf ,unwise and coward.

Acc to Quran..
Sumuin bukmun umyuun fahum la yarge'on.... ----al-baqra----

If land survey is'nt possible and we can not untide feudal system then where is democracy?????? How IK will bet land records and computerized tnem ?? We can suggest and suggesst but can't reform

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

Well, not digressing into any other discussion, I will stick to the issue of land reforms here.
Like I said the land reforms in Pakistan have a long and somewhat chequered history. The major reforms took place in three stages: the first during Ayub Khan's martial law in 1959 and other two during ZAB's regime in 1970s. According to the legislation passed by Ayub Khan which was the first major piece of legislation concerning land reforms in Pakistan- the West Pakistan Land Reforms Regulation 1959 (Regulation 64 of 1959), no individual could own more than 500 acres of irrigated and 1,000 acres of un-irrigated land or a maximum of 36,000 Produce Index Units (PIU), whichever was greater. It further allowed that land be redistributed amongst tenants and others. In addition, the regulation contained provisions which provided for security of tenants as well as for preventing the subdivision of land holdings. Whereas ZAB realizing that the land reforms were inadequate, he brought two major reforms. The salient features were that no individual holdings were to be in excess of 150 acres of irrigated land or 300 of un-irrigated land, or irrigated and un-irrigated land the aggregate area of which exceeded 150 acres of irrigated land (one acre of irrigated land being reckoned as the equivalent of two acres of un-irrigated land), or an area equivalent to 15,000 PIU of land, whichever was greater. The reforms also provided for excess land to be surrendered and utilised for the benefit of tenants shown to be in the process of cultivating it.

Furthermore, these reforms have suffered a great controversy in past. They have been alleged by opponents that they were un-Islamic and that they infringed on the right to own, use and enjoy property as protected by the constitution. Even when the matter was brought to Supreme Court it declared that the land reforms were against Islamic injunctions and unconstitutional. In reality, these reforms were noticed to have not much impact on rural society because the feudal lobby, well-entrenched in state structure and society, managed to hamper implementation. Unfortunately, the reforms were nullified, with the rich landowners continuing to control all levers of state power and society. Their power and greed can be observed in their shamefaced refusal to pay tax on agricultural income, while making the middle and lower classes pay taxes through their noses. Thus the so-called clique of landlords succeeded in maintaining the socio-economic status quo.

Now after a long time MQM has came up with a bill concerning land reforms in year 2010. It is again believed that land reforms are again on our national agenda through the bill proposed by MQM. The following are the features of the said bill:

• According to the bill, an individual ( not a family ) as a unit of ownership, can own not more than 30 irrigated and/or 54 un-irrigated acres of land

.

• The bill does not apply to the Federally Administered Tribal Areas.

• All land within the territorial limits of provinces, whether owned or leased or occupied or tenanted or encumbered or mortgaged with or without possession by any person, be resumed in the name of the provincial government. However, it says that land that falls within the limits of ‘economic holding’, as well as that held by registered charitable trusts and waqfs, shall be exempt from redistribution.

• Owners of land that is expropriated by the government shall be paid compensation at such rates per acre as may be determined by the commission.

• Each landless family of the cultivator or tenant or small land owner shall be granted land out of the land that has been seized. Priority would be given to landless cultivators followed by landless tenants and small landowners.
• Families that are granted land or have retained it may form cooperative farming societies. However, cooperative farming society may be formed by not more than three families.

In view of the foregoing features, how do you compare it with the other three land reforms made in Past? Let us discuss it here...

I have numbered your questions for the convenience of understanding and answered as follows:

1.
Well, an equitable distribution of land is integral to democracy, if Pakistan is to be compared with other developed countries which have shown great success in land administration. But do you think we are a democratic nation or we can be one? In my view, we are caught between the two- Islam and democracy, with a wish to have it on both ways. On the hand we would like to catch up with modernity and other hand hand do not delink from Islam all the way, hence an unclear vision.

2.

IK's stance carry weight because one of the major reasons why the land reforms have failed is that the only thing these land reforms succeeded in doing was to render the integrity of rural land-ownership documents meaningless. On paper, the biggest landowners do not possess more than a few hundred acres. So computerizing the whole record might work. I am not wary of its technicality though. So it's just an idea on my part...


PS: I did not quote the other part of your post, of your stance on two-nation theory and duplicity of attitude of Pakistani nation, because we would stumble into a different discussion and digress from what should be focused...

Regards,

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Real richness is that you are so expensive that no one can buy your character.

Its a very healthy discussion indeed.I encourage your input .Land reforms is a quite controversial topic encompassing military and civillian government .I wonder where we stand today. what we people have done for our country instead we preferred to migrate .All reforms in different sectors around the world had been initiated 2-3 centuries before

• Martin luther was a revoilutionary who stood for individual land holdings .These ideas were taken up .pakistan also needed these intellectuals who will bring change not corrupt politician.

• Kal Marx also pioneered the same and said ,religion is opiate of mankind .He was very true becasue Monks ,friars are land owners and looted people. This has created atheist sect and kal marx was also athiest .If we compare it with pakistan or in South Asia sensing us we are late comers and idle and talktive.we believe in rehtoric ,not in practical impilcations .

• pakistan`s land had been divided by britishers in to A and B areas. "A" were less dense ,thus owned by English and "B" was granted as Inam /jagir to persons who showed their loyalties towards them .

• Mmutaz doltana ,first initiated land reforms and up-holded committe and Ayub ,civil matial adminstator ,ZAB also reduced possession of lands form 500-1000 acres and then 300-150 acres based on irrigatied and non- irrigated lands.Ayub did it by introducing green revolution but this revolution is seems to be pice-meal .Nothing constructive happen rather 22 families formed oligarichiac form of government .This furter detriorated the peasentry condition . In agro-sector technocrats are needed which policized the production of land but Ayub did it by divivdin land into large and small farms .what a joke rulers did toward commons and we are un-aware !!!

• These land reforms under 1959 qnd 1972 act failed to equalize the distribution of wealth .that`s why middle class in pakistan is rare .we have two classes ;upper and lower and chunks of middle are present which are negligible because they prefer to migrate abraod.you have mentioned during zia `s era, litigants raised issue that reforms were un-Islamic .so what was that clause or reforms which are ascribed un-constitutional?? tell me.

• I do not want to indulge in IK nefarious designs who belive in the philosphy of diamond cuts diamond or "janwer ko marney ke liye janwer banan parta he" this philosphy is quite evitable when he employed feuds and corrupt people who had hindered reforms in parliament.

• why consensus of opinion regarding any matter is`nt there like past . Asma jehangir ,previous president of supreme cout bar association raised issue regading consensus of opinion .when any bill is proposed some says it un-islamic and some says it is against democracy and minoriies `s rights are not granted

• you said " we are caught up in Islam and democracy " so do you think Islam and democracy are quite different terms? then what people call this term as Islamic democracy??

• what do you mean by co-operative society act .lands in paksitan have diifernt owners.one is owned by single family ,other is from same birade and third form is in which different families are holding land of particular territory . do you mean by co-opearive society act? what is coherence of this term with land reforms.sorry I am oblivious of these societies and act .

• pakistan `s land in swat ,dir ,chitral ,balochistan B area( khan of kalat.makran region and lasbela land) and majority of sind area is in hand of jagirdars and these jagirdars are selling precious land to CIA contractors as well as multi-national comapnies withou pakistani government permit .so how this step is justified only on the groumds baloch are deprived people and they are allowed to do what they want .

• women in sind and balochistan are married with Quran e pak to for thier inheriditary holdings and these holdings personalised our political system.that`s why person at unit -level have more powers rather at provincial level .military men did this and supported landlords in the name local govenment system and I hate miltary and what bad they had done .This government is corrupt but at least it is doing something good which is not being highlighted by media in order to oust it from office and private channels for their ratings are dependent on multi-corporates .so these corporates are dictating .

• why pakistan is poor in govenance and managment inspite of privitization .because privitized land or other things are not being sold domestically to common people but to foreigners.so how middle class can emerge ? because we says privitization is only solution for the betterment of commom people .but these land is being leased and sold to cor-porates not to common man.we are slave and will remain becuase we are not ready to shape our fate .

• LAW regarding waqf in pakistan should be re-pealed because it support ill-legal holding in case when land would be privitized .becasues this law enable fief-holders to transform land to other family members through out their life .this meant for their parasitic life whic is root-cause of corrution in pakistan and also gift `s law should be re-pealed according to the need of time .These laws have and had been manipulated by jagirdars .

• lastly ,I am saying about laws and system-change but how the consensus can be derived in pakstan parliament is a major issue which saqib sherani has pointed in his article and I want to elongated this clause in order to probe and ponder why?????

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

Well, you have discussed the land reforms laudably. I endorse all your arguments and appreciate for increasing my knowledge. I have addressed four points of them as quoted above the following way:

1.
True, our politicians just put forward the empty rhetoric. But do you think 'Marxism' is applicable in any case, since it has failed?

2.
Zia-ul-Haq came up with two major amending ordinances in his regime. The first in 1979 declared that where the provincial government had decided to lease out surrendered land, the person who surrendered it would have first priority, and the second allowed the federal government to exempt any educational institution or cooperative farming society from the operation of the 1977 act. These reforms came under searing allegations as being un-islamic and unconstitutional. Like I said when the matter in the case of Qazalbash Waqf v Chief Land Commissioner was brought in Supreme Court, it agreed with the allegations and declared of the 1972 regulations, that paragraphs 7, 8, 9, 10, 13 and 14 and thus consequently 18 were unconstitutional as being against Islamic injunctions. And not only this, but Supreme Court overturned the entire sections — 3, 4, 5, 6, 7(5), 8, 9, 10 — and consequently sections 11-17 of the act as being unconstitutional and against Islamic injunctions.

3.
Well, the discussions have proliferated if Islam and democracy converge at any point. We had better discuss it in separate thread. But I would still drop some lines even at the cost of digression from the topic. Like I have written in my last post, democracy is a cornerstone of western civilization whereas Islam is divine and universal. The former is fraught with several flaws and drawbacks since it's man made whereas the later is a perfect and complete code of life since it's given by ALLAH Almighty. So what ALLAH has chosen for its creature has to last for their good, not the one which the humans have chosen for themselves. Some people say that the concept of democracy does exist in Islam, I will just ask them to do one thing here. Trace back the roots of democracy and that of Islam both, you will certainly find them as two different poles apart. Democracy has repercussions, Islam addresses the repercussions. Democracy per se has begun to fray around the seams even for the West, whereas Islam is suggested for the whole world including West. Democracy has been used as a tool for a so-called clique of the West to maintain their control and nothing else. One popular definition of democracy is “government of the people, by the people, for the people” put forward by Abraham Lincoln. I just wonder who better knows what should be the government like for the people other than the one who created these people, that is ALLAH. That's another unfortunate saga we are not clear about choosing one of them. To call it quits, I will say if we are too choose democracy then it has to adjust itself according to the standards of Islam, not vice versa.

4.
Well, the term co-operative society is used in business and commerce which means a commercial enterprise owned and managed by and for the benefit of customers or workers. A co-operative society may comprise of agriculturists, artisans and persons of limited means. Every co-operative society has to operate under law called Cooperative Societies Act. The said act is a Central Act. However, ‘Cooperative Societies’ is a State Subject. Every state has its own Co-operative Societies Act. In Pakistan THE COOPERATIVE SOCIETIES ACT, 1925 is active for all provinces. As per preamble to the Act, the Act is to facilitate formation of cooperative societies for the promotion of thrift and self-help among agriculturists, artisans and persons of limited means for a better living and better business.
If you want to know more then visit the following link.
THE COOPERATIVE SOCIETIES ACT

Regards,

__________________
Real richness is that you are so expensive that no one can buy your character.

Due to pacuity I could not answer you well .thanx for appreciating me .I will go through this act when I will avail time.

• How can you say Marxiam is vanished or it ihas become out of scene or taboo .wall street crisis is glarent example of it .fail of captialism proved what Marx has stated so question in sociology would be asked about marxism or about Max webber .but it is off-topic .Islam stands between martin and marxism .thsese are extreme and Islam is stand well .That`s why Islam is superme and this year islamic economic system is important for Islamiyat .

• zia had exempted corporate forming or educational institution. will you show some light on that matter ..why he did so

• you have snatched my point of view and I am well agredd and this is my point of view regarding democracy and Islam .

• Now,along with discussion we can perambulate our discussion on other issues .how corruption in political parties can be dis-rupted ? and how bureaucracy can be freed from corruption? now it is your turn .I feel you are very good fellow and your attitude toward forum is quite constuctive .May Allah bless you

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

sadia you are splendiferous !!

__________________
"for me Life is enigmatic"

1. Well, the exemption of cooperative farming societies and educational institutes from the operation of the 1977 act would mean that the ceiling on land holding in the said act will not be applicable to cooperative farming societies as well as educational institutes. I am not wary of its technical reason from late Zia's perspective. What is known to me presently is that he brought all reforms in the name of Islamization. He was the one to create FSC (ie Federal Shariat Court) and the same declared his laws to be repugnant to Islamic injunctions on the case of Qazalbash Waqf.

2. Sure, we're going to move ahead in the discussion regarding the areas of corruption you have pointed out. Expect me sharing my views soon.

Thanks for appreciating my contribution to the forum. I believe "knowledge increases when shared". You too have been a great help in the discussions. The best about you is your consistency. May ALLAH bless you too. Keep it up!

regards,

__________________
Real richness is that you are so expensive that no one can buy your character.

I am posting it because it will help a lot regarding land reforms.



Land Reforms – History, Legal challenges and how Shariat Courts abolished them « Secular Pakistan

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

well we have discussed a lot about corruption and land reforms come in the avenue of governmental sector .We can divide reforms in to private and Industrial sector reforms . what zia had did ,I too assert it un-Islamic .because land surrender can be made by providing capital and allowed them to invest in government-launched project .This would flurred pakistan -economic development .I will start here now from pakistani political system.




REFORMS IN PAKISTAN POLITICAL SYSYTEM
Political development is considered as an instrument for the strengthening of representative institutions in a political system. Political development increases the level of participation and the capacity of the political institutions to accommodate the change for the maintenance of' the political system. This correlation is very significant in the context or political development which is linked with the constitutional development and it becomes an important source for administrative reforms in the form of constitutional enactments in the administrative system.The pace of political process in Pakistan had been very slow from 1947 to1970, and as a result the political culture as being an important component of the political system could not develop. Particularly, during the rule of General Ayub (1958-69) political activities were banned and political parties being the representatives of the people were not allowed to participating in the political process. There top ranking leadership was disqualified to take part in political activities through the notorious laws such as EBDO. Therefore, the Political parties in Pakistan failed to impose controls on the civil bureaucracy due to the absence of effective political structure and organization

• first thing pakistan need educated MPAs and MNAs and having specialization in their respective field.I will cite as Rana sana Ullah or babur awan have law degree then it is right for them to become law minister .but if one does`nt have geographical knowledge or not mastery in finacial affairs ,then he should not become minister of particular portfolio( which is happening now) . This is due to nepotism ,form of corruption which is rampant in pakistan .

• Merit-based enrolement in political parties should be intorduced . rhetoric should not be considered a mere tool for political leadership or feudal background .like physics ,chemistry and computer and other branches political science should be inducted as an elective subject .Like sports that are considered of innate intesrest ,students should have some practical that prove they are liable for leadership . This will work a lot .

• Civil service exams or provincial goveenment exams are being backed by political workers .Recruitment in competitive exams are being done by referance not via merit .so political parties leverage should be minimized and these institutions should be kept in strict watch by accountibility bureaus .

• seats in particular constitutiencies are won by money induction and installment to locals and polling stations have record of corruption .so this does not mean that army would be only instituition that can minimize corruption on polling station. A neutral bureau is needed for that.To curtail the manipulation of the electoral process, the ECP must be made independent, autonomous, impartial and effective. It should be able to issue legally binding regulations. Partnerships and consultations between ECP and all stakeholders (legislative, political, civil, media) should be nourished. ECP must prioritise the timely implementation of the Five-Year Strategic Plan (2010-2014), and enhance accountability of voting processes, election officials and electoral candidates. The ECP should investigate and reprimand all instances of women being barred from voting or contesting elections. All results from polling stations where legal codes are violated and women barred from participating should be voided and re-polled. The ECP should also arrange for adequate security and remove all unauthorized persons from polling stations.The first element of improving the electoral rolls is to make the Computerized Electoral Rolls System (CERS) fully operational. A detailed plan for data collection should be executed by the ECP in collaboration with NADRA. NADRA’s database of CNICs should be used to improve the electoral rolls and improved voter lists should be displayed at polling stations.

• All assests of minsiters should be declared and their account should be evaluted .pakistan Tax-GDP ratio is very lowest if we compare it to other countries.this is due to rulers ,bureaucrts (military or civil) have holdings un-declared and non-paid and Income to particular industry is manipulated into white -lie .Such records squeemished common man what a hell these ministers are doing with us .Peasents are victimized and feuds take advantage .

• Feuds and bureaucratic and polictical parties nexus should be di-rupted and organized system should be intoduced in which each lot has its own domain and that domain is answerable to acc.bureau or government directly not to middle man.All these manipulate their gains .

• Too much power is concentrated with the parliamentarians, who have persistently proved to be unworthy of it: "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely", power to plunder is the norm. The chief executives [CE], Prime minister [PM] and chief ministers [CMs] of provinces are totally dependent on members of parliament for their election and to remain in power. Even an angel PM cannot remain fair under such circumstances of blackmail. They pressurise CE to get undue favours in bargain to their support to keep PM and CMs in power. Unless the political system is reformed the musical chair of power between politicians and military would continue with no regard to the welfare of general public.

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"