i mean what we read is not always true.See is look logical
[QUOTE]But, I believe that if democracy fails the solution is more democracy and if that fails then the solution is even more democracy.[/QUOTE]
The more democracy we have with more failure.seems quite ridiculous!
why not new methods and inventions.Think about it

[QUOTE=ursula;905016]i mean what we read is not always true.See is look logical

The more democracy we have with more failure.seems quite ridiculous!
why not new methods and inventions.Think about it[/QUOTE]
Do you propose something better?
The more democracy is not more failure.
Right now, we have democracy, or so you believe.
The right to vote doesn't mean democracy. How is a person without food, free to vote for whoever they want?
The more democracy in this would mean incorporating Democratic values and educating people. Giving them economic liberty before political liberty.

I don't know what you understood by more democracy, but your perception was wrong.

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[QUOTE=Nazish Hina;905017]Do you propose something better?
The more democracy is not more failure.
Right now, we have democracy, or so you believe.
The right to vote doesn't mean democracy. How is a person without food, free to vote for whoever they want?
The more democracy in this would mean incorporating Democratic values and educating people. Giving them economic liberty before political liberty.

I don't know what you understood by more democracy, but your perception was wrong.

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Would you like to explain me democratic values,educating people and economic liberty in particular.With each passing day corruption is rampant and economic disparities are self evident,besides poor parliamentarians who are stunningly illiterate.Is it democracy.At least Musharraf has establishment NAB.Dear socioeconomic strata of Pakistan is very complex, we ought to introvert first before becoming a lame duck as which ideology works best and why?
Because in Pakistan system is so entrenched with corruption and nepotism that im afraid to say that our democracy is even worst than dictatorship.
By the way in india there never did happen to have dictatorship despite of having 70plus old years.This culture is not developed than how you can expect that it works for Pakistan.

Apology for my diversion.

ignore my grammatical mistakes as i posted it impulsively.:pipe

Yeah, I know there's corruption. Boring!
Next
Musharraf made NAB?
Let's remember that and forget everything else he did. Like ruling the country without a constitution, and at will. Overruling judiciary, silencing media. Saying yes , to every american demand on the phone.
God! People he gave you NAB. What more can a man do?

Again, idioms? They express nothing logical and just confuse me. I don't know what this means.
[QUOTE]we ought to introvert first before becoming a lame duck as which ideology works best and why?[/QUOTE]
Are we a lame duck? (An elected person still in office, an unsuccessful person or what?)
Are you saying that we shouldn't think about what's better? I'm so confused, I'm just going to not attempt to understand it.

[QUOTE]Because in Pakistan system is so entrenched with corruption and nepotism that im afraid to say that our democracy is even worst than dictatorship.[/QUOTE]
Yes, there's corruption. Trust me I know. To end corruption we need to work on it.
You think only the government is corrupt? I say, bullshit! The whole public is corrupt. We all pay more to get things done quickly. We all prefer our relatives to that random guy who wants the job.
When the public will fix these things and the government is still corrupt, then we'll think about a dictatorship. Or not, why would we ever want a dictator?
Rulers are a manifestation of general public, they come from us.
[QUOTE]By the way in india there never did happen to have dictatorship despite of having 70 plus old years.This culture is not developed than how you can expect that it works for Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
um, what? You NEVER want democracy?
You think we don't have a democratic culture, so we'll never have a democracy?
Because democratic values will never flourish under a dictator. And you know that too. Its 2015, Democracy vs Dictatorship, shouldn't even be a thing!. How about socialist democracy or anything else, but not dictatorship
P.S: I hate to say this, and you will not like it but you need to stop watching ARY news.

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[QUOTE=ursula;905022]Would you like to explain me democratic values,educating people and economic liberty in particular.With each passing day corruption is rampant and economic disparities are self evident,besides poor parliamentarians who are stunningly illiterate.Is it democracy.At least Musharraf has establishment NAB.Dear socioeconomic strata of Pakistan is very complex, we ought to introvert first before becoming a lame duck as which ideology works best and why?
Because in Pakistan system is so entrenched with corruption and nepotism that im afraid to say that our democracy is even worst than dictatorship.
By the way in india there never did happen to have dictatorship despite of having 70plus old years.This culture is not developed than how you can expect that it works for Pakistan.

Apology for my diversion.[/QUOTE]

Ursula you have good points but I would like to say that the kind of democracy you see nowadays in Pakistan is not the democracy I am talking about, in fact you are right, it is not a proper democracy and worse than a benevolent-dictatorship e.g in UAE or Singapore. Thing is, parliamentary democracy based on British lines is very advanced for our society, we have to evolve to that level and education/awareness will play a key role in making that kind of democracy implemented here, it is happening but slowly, the media and internet has made people aware and connected with the world so they know what is good and what is bad. Another thing, India after partition tried to control its feudalism and civilians consolidated control over the military whereas in Pakistan, it was mainly the feudal establishment that was the engine of Muslim League and Quaid-e-Azam died very early so he couldn't put the country on the right track, it is just like when a child becomes an orphan at an early age and then we had security issues with India so that further messed up things. Becoming an orphan and then an enmity (dushmani) combined with the unfortunate era of 70s and 80s really hampered our healthy growth as a progressive and democratic society.

[QUOTE]Ursula you have good points but I would like to say that the kind of democracy you see nowadays in Pakistan is not the democracy I am talking about, in fact you are right, it is not a proper democracy and worse than a benevolent-dictatorship e.g in UAE or Singapore. Thing is, parliamentary democracy based on British lines is very advanced for our society, we have to evolve to that level and education/awareness will play a key role in making that kind of democracy implemented here, it is happening but slowly, the media and internet has made people aware and connected with the world so they know what is good and what is bad. Another thing, India after partition tried to control its feudalism and civilians consolidated control over the military whereas in Pakistan, it was mainly the feudal establishment that was the engine of Muslim League and Quaid-e-Azam died very early so he couldn't put the country on the right track, it is just like when a child becomes an orphan at an early age and then we had security issues with India so that further messed up things. Becoming an orphan and then an enmity (dushmani) combined with the unfortunate era of 70s and 80s really hampered our healthy growth as a progressive and democratic society.[QUOTE]
Good explanation sir,atleast you agreed that there exist [B]colonial mind[/B] set that needs massive overhauling and repairment.
im ambivalent in a sense that geopolitical landscape of world state is changing so rapidly that it is said to be a last fight for nation state's to survive.And it is even proved by renowned analyst that democracy in pakista
n is failed anecdote.
for india and pakistan
My question is how far we would carry on this [B]blame game[/B],at least we even didnt learn how to establish good relations with our proximal neighbours.


[QUOTE]Let's remember that and forget everything else he did. Like ruling the country without a constitution, and at will. Overruling judiciary, silencing media. Saying yes , to every american demand on the phone.
God! People he gave you NAB. What more can a man do?[/QUOTE]
you forget one thing as well that he restored liberty of electronic media,and you know during his tenure private channels spring out exponentially.
At least im contending that he fought against the fanatics, lal masjid operation!
remember something !
you mean Iftikhar chaudary and his rhetoric speeches
you know judiciary in pakistan is even worst than srilanka and Bangladesh.
Pakistan has the worst record of conviction rate.
Also
Decision of terrorists executions are decided by army.Ironically its performance is better than civil courts :D

[QUOTE]Are we a lame duckl? (An elected person still in office, an unsuccessful person or what?)
Are you saying that we shouldn't think about what's better? I'm so confused, I'm just going to not attempt to understand it.[/QUOTE]
Dear is it not a joke that in Pakistan only a hand picked politicians are not only elected but also renominated and renominated and in Nawaz case elected thricely as prime minister.
Next time i augure that he will become president.
if you didnt understand than im really sorry for this.

[QUOTE]Yes, there's corruption. Trust me I know. To end corruption we need to work on it.[/QUOTE]
Deaar again its not we who has to work.It is army who is working.Yes its politicians who are sitting comfortably in their homes.:D
[QUOTE]Rulers are a manifestation of general public, they come from us[/QUOTE]
manifestation is something apocryphal,dear work on it.
incorrect premise
Rulers are not elected but purchased.Do you ever think of a an mpa who is an ordinary clerk or a shoe maker.

[QUOTE]You think we don't have a democratic culture, so we'll never have a democracy?
Because democratic values will never flourish under a dictator. And you know that too. Its 2015, Democracy vs Dictatorship, shouldn't even be a thing!. How about socialist democracy or anything else, but not dictatorship
P.S: I hate to say this, and you will not like it but you need to stop watching ARY news[/QUOTE]
i watch all channels.Dont be offensive:angry:
If you have time than kindly read kaplan book Revenge of geography and also the monsoon.
If you are inspired by western democracy,than im too.particularly social welfare democracy and how did you proof me that a modal workable is also successful at the other region.If that is true than my dear America should have definitely won the vietnam war.Think about it.
In pakistan when masses are so poor that they sell their votes at the cost of one time meal than how you can expect improvement.
In short your democracy is worst than my dictatorship.
But it doesnt mean im against the democracy.Next time
Come up with concrete evidences.:waiting

[QUOTE]If that is true than my dear America should have definitely won the vietnam war.
In short your democracy is worst than my dictatorship[/QUOTE]
I know army is working, My father and a brother are in army.
But I rest my case, you can't equate war with governance .
It's not "my" democracy,
But you can keep hoping for a dictatorship.
I value my liberty way too much to support the dictatorship of any kind. I don't even support Military Courts and this new amendment.

Army has a brilliant propaganda machine so every breath Raheel Shareef takes becomes, Thank You Raheel Sharif. Even while he interferes where he doesn't belong.
Just wait till September, when it's extension time.
Adieu!
P.S: Thanks for the book suggestions, and I will be starting that Environmental Science discussion.

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so what?
Dear one of the causactive agent of war is [B]bad governance[/B].
I dont hope infact you can guess i have stopped myself making unachievable dreams.
If army has a brilliant propanganda than who has stopped our government not to use that one.I think it is pml n propaganda to turn gullu but [B]innocent[/B].
Dont worry tenure of Raheel shareef itself would be prolonged by nawaz sharif[B](elected prime minister[/B])

[QUOTE=ursula;905060]so what?
Dear one of the causactive agent of war is [B]bad governance[/B].
I dont hope infact you can guess i have stopped myself making unachievable dreams.
If army has a brilliant propanganda than who has stopped our government not to use that one.I think it is pml n propaganda to turn gullu but [B]innocent[/B].
Dont worry tenure of Raheel shareef itself would be prolonged by nawaz sharif[B](elected prime minister[/B])[/QUOTE]
Let's just call a truce
:D
Good night!
See you in environmental science section tomorrow.
Unachievable dreams and you? When did I say that? I don't like PML(N) at all. I don't know what gave you that impression.
I'm unsubscribing to this thread. Time issues!
Thanks for the intelligent discussion. ( no sarcasm) I like debating and I like intelligent people, but most of all I like debating with intelligent people! :D
Sorry if I went too far at any point.



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