USA vs KSA! - Page 2

Raz · #11 Saturday, November 10, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad T S Awan

i). Probably this does not contain anything to religion, rather this is governance system in both countries, which defines who is to become its President or who is to get nationality etc.

ii). KSA Government is a monarchy since its creation with rules to be defined as per the tennets of Islam ( to be more specific as per the Wahabi /Salafi school of jurisprudence). There is no specific written constitution for the country. Since it is a monarchy lead by family of Saud, King is supposed to be from this specific family and he is the head of all the important pillars of state like legislative, executive, and judicial functions etc. Moreover, key ministries and governorships of its provinces are generally reserved for royal family.

iii). On the other hand, USA is federation republic/representative democracy. Its government structure comprise President, Cabinet and Congress (Senate and House of Representative). The President is elected through indirect electoral processe etc.

iv). KSA can only be consdired as centre of Islam because of holy places lying in it, otherwise it has nothing much to do with islam or muslims.... Moreover, monarchial system was there in Islam from Ummayads onwards and it may not be prudent to term USA government more linked to islamic systems only on the basis of the reason of a black man becoming President, or having nationality thing for all and sundry or giving much human rights.....

Agreed, specially on point number iv.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad T S Awan

KSA Government follows some of the things defined by Wahabism /Salafism and the King is absolute power holder who is to supposed to pass/approve laws etc. As per them the country is going on right way . However, as per my thinking as well, alas that country is not going on any right direction. . Its resources have been captured by the west and specifically USA. Americans have got hold of much of oil reserves and they control it (*Saudia is having second largest oil reserves). The Americans have also taken hold of some of the other things including stay of many military units in and around Saudia on the plea of her protection and on her money.... Honestly speaking, in my thinking Saudis cannot say no to USA or to be on broader spectrum, they not only get impressed with the white skin of the west but also they fear from them!

Dear Mujahid, you are thinking in right direction.

saleem2000 · #12 Sunday, November 11, 2012

KSA stands for Kingdom of Saudi Arabia . Where is Islam in it? We have Monarchy throughout the history of Islam.The rule of King is often mistaken to be Islamic rule and democracy is perceived as the gift of non-Muslims.This is all true but then what is wrong with American presence in KSA?

engineerchauhan · #13 Sunday, November 11, 2012

Well i think petro-dollar point is missing in this issue.
The crude oil is directly linked with dollar. thats why USA is unable to have anarchistic situation in that region.
Having the Muslim centre answer in some lines is different.
Its shattered into many pieces after fall of Turkish Empire. Now Muslims powers have regional centres like Pak Iran Turk and Saudia claim their own importance in their respective region. they all are not only interlinked but in some ways independent.......
Like Turk and Iran are free of SA influence but Pak is influenced by all of them.

Now we have nothing to do with king of saudia but what we blame is the missing role he has to play when Muslims thinks him leader(which is also a wrong approach, now things are gone regional instead of calling him sole leader ) ...

emraankhattak · #14 Sunday, November 11, 2012

salam,
saudi monarchs safegaurd the interest of west and Americans, in return they got tacit support for their monarchy.Worth mentioning here is the silence of west and America over media and other human rights voilations in the Kingdom.recent demonstration against the youtube and the illicit movie were stagged all over the world except KSA.Reason behind, state hard censor policy over media,the public voice.

Invincible · #15 Monday, November 12, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad T S Awan

KSA Government follows some of the things defined by Wahabism /Salafism and the King is absolute power holder who is to supposed to pass/approve laws etc.

I think there is no Muslim country that follows ISLAM instead of a particular sect. Alas!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad T S Awan

As per them the country is going on right way

. However, as per my thinking as well, alas that country is not going on any right direction.

. Its resources have been captured by the west and specifically USA. Americans have got hold of much of oil reserves and they control it (*Saudia is having second largest oil reserves). The Americans have also taken hold of some of the other things including stay of many military units in and around Saudia on the plea of her protection and on her money.... Honestly speaking, in my thinking Saudis cannot say no to USA or to be on broader spectrum, they not only get impressed with the white skin of the west but also they fear from them!

I second you.

Question arises: Why only non-Muslims have plans to design & accomplish it. Do we have just skull without Brain? Astonishing!

Muhammad T S Awan · #16 Monday, November 12, 2012

A clarification, Saudi government does not take any money in shape of tax for pilgrimage/hajj /umra etc. Pardon, I was not aware of this thing and had confirmed from a fellow today. However, they take some little money from Haji for fee for paying to contractors for arranging tents etc at Mina /Arafat and some transportation money, but that is very meager.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invincible

I think there is no Muslim country that follows ISLAM instead of a particular sect. Alas!

Yes there may not be any. The sect system is also prevalent in Christians as well but they do not project it , their media is shrewd enough to put lot of litter on developing/other nations instead of their own.. But for us, media is a power hub and they just go for any awkward thing , more destructional stints thn constructional works...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invincible

I second you.

Question arises: Why only non-Muslims have plans to design & accomplish it. Do we have just skull without Brain? Astonishing!

Alas we do not have minds.. We try to remain clinched to power instead of doing any bigger things.... However, we have some good examples of Turkey and Malaysia, which have been progressing fastly..

Invincible · #17 Monday, November 12, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad T S Awan

Yes there may not be any. The sect system is also prevalent in Christians as well but they do not project it , their media is shrewd enough to put lot of litter on developing/other nations instead of their own.. But for us, media is a power hub and they just go for any awkward thing , more destructional stints thn constructional works...

Do Christians label others "Infidels" on small differences & murder them mercilessly?

We ought to start discourse on relevant platforms or in OIC on these sensitive issues to discourage fanatic elements.

Muhammad T S Awan · #18 Tuesday, November 13, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invincible

Do Christians label others "Infidels" on small differences & murder them mercilessly?

Yup they remained butchering each other some centuries ago, but that is a part of history now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invincible

We ought to start discourse on relevant platforms or in OIC on these sensitive issues to discourage fanatic elements.

Not a bad suggestion, but realisticallly speaking, unfortunately this thing cannot happen ....! These fanatic elements had been and are being supported by many Muslim countries .....

tx_ned · #19 Monday, December 03, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo[t]

they don't have the right to charge for visiting Kaaba as We All are Muslims. Surely they are improving their facilities year by year but that doesn't mean that they should put their burden on every visitor.

Let me divide your question in two portions.

Quote:

as We All are Muslims. Surely they are improving their facilities year by year but that doesn't mean that they should put their burden on every visitor.

The series of questions arise – Who are the people going to this ‘black building - Kaa’ba’? Who did manage to get them gathered there? Were they forced to go there?

Answer is – They are Muslims, their faith brought them there and they were not forced to go there – not even by their religion as this performance is only obligatory to Muslims who could afford it financially and physically.

Exactly like people visiting the ‘Sanctuary of Nossa Senhora de Fátima, Potugal’ – They are Christians, their faith brought them there and they were not forced by anyone.

You may apply the logical sense – even on any gathering around the globe, visiting the world by any indivisual or exploring the universe by going to refresh your mind.

Everyone is free to spend their money in such cases so I don't see any point to call this visit as money wastage.

Let me come to the real part of your comment stating

Quote:

“they don't have the right to charge for visiting Kaaba”

I’m not sure what exactly you meant but I could guess that you were trying to refer it to KSA Government who is probably taking financial advantage of such an opportunity (that has been fallen to them by luck as they got the Holy Places) to organise this gathering.

If I got you right – then you would be surprised that there is no fee for Hajj Visa (entry clearance or processing application fee for Pilgrimage).

Here is the official KSA website link http://www.saudi.gov.sa/wps/portal/!...-saudis&catid= where you could find out the processing fee as "0" for Hajj (under the tab of 'Requirements and Forms' - 'For Individuals' - 'Service Cost' )

You can go through the link http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/aboutus/fees/ to find out the processing fees for Visa issuance by United Kingdom.

People do spend a lot of money just to visit United Kingdom (a luxurious purpose - not a primary necessitate of life) each year.

Hope it answers the question, please feel free to come with any related query.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invincible

Do Christians label others "Infidels" on small differences & murder them mercilessly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muhammad T S Awan

Yup they remained butchering each other some centuries ago, but that is a part of history now.

I would second 'Sir Muhammad T S Awan' with addition of my opinion that 'they still do'. The only 'white collar stuff' is that the style has been modified and modernized.

Let me quote some examples:

In July 2011, Anders Behring Breivik was arrested and charged with terrorism after a car bombing in Oslo and a mass shooting on Utøya island. As a result of his attacks, 151 people were injured, and 77 killed. Hours prior to the events, Breivik released a 1,500 page manifesto detailing that immigrants were undermining Norway's traditional Christian values, and identifying himself as a "Christian crusader".

The Orange Volunteers are a group infamous for carrying out simultaneous terrorist attacks on Catholic churches.

The Manmasi National Christian Army (MNCA), an extremist group from the Hmar tribe, been charged with forcing Hindus to convert at gunpoint.

The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) is currently proscribed as a terrorist organization in India involved in butchering the masses.

Fourteen traditionalist shamans about to form a shamanic school and association were murdered in Peru over a period of several months prior to October 2011. The murders were allegedly committed by, and/or at the behest of, the local mayor and a group of other evangelical Christians. The mayor's brother was known in the area as a matabrujos or witch killer.

Hutaree was a Christian militia group based in Adrian, Michigan. In 2010, after an FBI agent infiltrated the group, nine of its members were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy to use of improvised explosive devices, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence. On March 28, 2012, the conspiracy charges were dismissed.

All the way to assassinations by radical anti-abortionists in the US. The National Liberation Front of Tripura is an explicitly Christian terrorist group, forcibly converting people. The National Socialist Council of Nagaland has unleashed terrorism in its pursuit of 'Nagalim for Christ'.

Some scholars, such as Steve Bruce, a sociology professor at the University of Aberdeen, argue that the conflict in Northern Ireland is primarily a religious conflict, its economic and social considerations notwithstanding. Professor Mark Juergensmeyer has also argued that some acts of terrorism were "religious terrorism... – in these cases, Christianity". Others, such as John Hickey, take a more guarded view.

Writing in The Guardian, Susan McKay discussed religious fundamentalism in connection with the murder of Martin O'Hagan, a former inmate of the Maze prison and a reporter on crime and the paramilitaries. She attributed the murder to a "range of reasons," including "the gangsters didn't like what he wrote". The alleged killers claimed that they killed him for "crimes against the loyalist people".

Self-styled pastors Clifford Peeples, previously convicted under the Prevention of Terrorism Act, John Somerville, and their associates, were dubbed by RUC chief constable, Ronnie Flanagan "the demon pastors" – specialising in recounting lurid stories of Catholic savagery towards Protestants, and in finding biblical justifications for Protestant retaliation.

John Joseph, the Christian representative of the National Minority Commission, stated in 2000 that foreign funds used for Christian terrorism in the northeast are routed through Christians in Kerala.

A quasi-religious movement that mixes some aspects of Christian beliefs with its own brand of spiritualism, it is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the "Holy Spirit" which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.

LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before attack.

During the twentieth century, members of extremist groups such as the Army of God began executing attacks against abortion clinics and doctors across the United States. A number of terrorist attacks were attributed to individuals and groups with ties to the Christian Identity and Christian Patriot movements, including the Lambs of Christ.

A group called Concerned Christians were deported from Israel on suspicion of planning to attack holy sites in Jerusalem at the end of 1999, believing that their deaths would "lead them to heaven."

The motive for anti-abortionist Scott Roeder murdering Wichita doctor George Tiller on May 31, 2009 was a belief that abortion is criminal and immoral, and that this belief went "hand in hand" with his religious beliefs.

The Centennial Olympic Park bombing in 1996, as well as subsequent attacks on an abortion clinic and a lesbian nightclub, were made by Eric Robert Rudolph; Michael Barkun, a professor at Syracuse University, considers Rudolph to likely fit the definition of a Christian terrorist, whereas James A. Aho, a professor at Idaho State University, argues instead that Rudolph was inspired only in part by religious considerations.

Terrorism scholar Aref M. Al-Khattar has listed The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord, Defensive Action, The Freemen Community, and some "Christian militia" as groups that "can be placed under the category of far-right-wing terrorism" that "has a religious (Christian) component".

Gary Birdsong & Greet Wilders are extremists being involved in provoking hatred and discrimination?

‘Dominion Theology’ is a current extremism proof of the followers of the theory.

Ajai Lall is a Christian preacher and missionary in India. He is the founder and first Executive Director of Central India Christian Mission. Lall is associated with the Christian churches and churches of Christ, which is part of the Restoration Movement. He was reportedly found at Punjab his preaching could agitate the crowd due to a threatened Hindu protest.

In July 2010, Terry Jones, the pastor of the Christian Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, U.S., announced he would burn 200 Qurans. Jones's threat sparked protests in the Middle East and Asia, in which at least 20 people were killed.

The one who provokes others with such a vicious statement caused 20 reported death tolls; can we call him an extremist?

Benedict XVI, launched a blistering attack on "atheist extremism" and "aggressive secularism” in his Britain visit.

Benedict XVI who issued an anti-condom doctrine (2005) that was a sabotage in fight against Aids.

List goes on but I would finish with a famous quotation:

“The United States spends over $87 billion conducting a war in Iraq while the United Nations estimates that for less than half that amount we could provide clean water, adequate diets, sanitations services and basic education to every person on the planet. And we wonder why terrorists attack us.” -John Perkins

"I would also request fellows to please go through 'Post No 3' of following link"

http://www.cssforum.com.pk/general/d...terrorism.html

Regards

The Following User Says Thank You to Raz For This Useful Post:
Muhammad T S Awan (Monday, November 12, 2012)

The Following User Says Thank You to Invincible For This Useful Post:
mjkhan (Monday, November 12, 2012)

The Following User Says Thank You to Muhammad T S Awan For This Useful Post:
tx_ned (Tuesday, November 20, 2012)