That remains the problem, there are very little professionals of industry and science here . You know just reading science can be even more dangerous, nazism arose from some misinterpretation of science .

And we have only ourselves to blame.

Right, because the totalitarian regimes like to take technology but block the liberalism and free thought that inevitably accompanies science. If they will do this, they will have to pay the price. Same goes for us.

It must be admitted that science and industry have very little impact on broader Muslim society, just because we can import technology and use modern tools we begin to think if it was not for mullahs we would beat the whole world is ridiculous .

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

and yeah it's not just religious belief to blame but economic retardedness also play a role. Many people cannot afford the services of professionals and industry while the powerful ones want it for free thus there is crime and bhatta mafia which is not soul attribute of religious bigots . The capitalist model of economy is simply not taking root I think .

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

I don't think anyone said that religious bigotry is the sole reason of all our problems. It is the main reason of our ambivalent attitude toward the likes of TTP/IS, and covert support for extremism. This is what I was talking about.

As to the economic, administrative, political etc. problems of Pakistan and their reasons, that is a separate debate.

I agree, but just to make a point that all these things are linked. I personally hate religious attitude of people, particularly when they fail to understand anything and start attacking for what they perceive as desecration. I face it even at home all the time . I hate it when parents first try to enslave children by using force of religion and then do favoritism among them and find justification for all the nonsense in religion . I hate it when the strongest of reason fails to stand a chance before a superstitious religious belief . Not only is there religious bigotry but there is also a phenomenon of religious hypocrisy, people try to stop you from doing something they themselves do by claiming we are sinners but we won't get you into that, awesome form of selflessness, if you want to stop me do jihad against your own soul first but no we will only do jihad with others, for example corruption is bad so stop others from doing it but you can do it for 'your family's good' . People remain silent for religious reasons on the most noticeably unjust thing to which everyone agrees is unjust. And there are many other things I hate about this typical religious attitude encountered almost always and I agree as long as it is there nothing is going to improve, people won't progress themselves neither will they tolerate anyone else make progress. But still, I strive to seek the bigger truth behind all this .

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

I agree with what you are saying, but we were having a focused discussion about a certain topic of religious extremism and our ambivalent attitude toward it. To me it does not seem like a good idea to divert to it to other problems, particularly if they are not very directly related. For example the economic causes of religious movements that you mentioned is correct but for the time being, that is not our concern. Similarly, there might be relationship between religious bigotry and political corruption (or not) but that is not directly relevant when we are talking about TTP/IS. If we are to stop nothing short of complete truth then pretty much everything in the world is interconnected.

Well , it is a pity that the present form of Islamic teaching are a great threat to the civilization . ISIS is only one example of that . The world is trying hard to suppress the threat of Islamic Terrorism . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism


Well it is a pity that we can not do anything for this .

That would be like trying to corner the beast without the ability to control it, let's see what happens .

Basically if we don't focus upon the reasons that swell their ranks and stop our governments from taking action, what we are actually doing is crying and begging them to stop. Do you really think that is a good idea . Don't forget there still are elements within our governments who find them 'useful'.

When you can't control the beast you call for expert help, expert helps you control the beast, collect charges and leave but then again you are unable to keep hold of the beast . This is the pattern that is going on in the middle east it seems . But Pakistanis are so ego centric they won't even call for help and neither learn to control the beast . They will assume beast has messed up at a wrong place, it has to die and then just wish the beast dies itself .

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

This is how its SUPPOSED to be if you take out religion, but we can't ignore the fact that religion is a very powerful motivating factor for people to do things that they normally wouldn't do. There are very few people who would want to kill the person in front of them just for abusing them, but in the case of blasphemy, even otherwise nice people start calling for blood.

You are correct that an outdated ideology won't work in this age, but this is EXACTLY what most Muslims are trying to do, and we can see the results.

BTW desiring death for apostasy is not a violent tendency, it's like desiring harsh punishment for a crime which the modern world no longer consider a crime .

No, but the rationale behind it is a violent tendency: i.e. me believing that you should be killed just because you don't believe what I believe. Lets say I believe you should be killed just because you don't believe a PS4 is better than an XBOX. Violent tendency, no?

But how will you even prove atheism, haha? The guy can just recite the kalma again

That's a pretty thought provoking perspective on the Indian and Muslim civilization, especially on how they evolved and I agree with most of your points! However, I've noticed that in every family, be it Muslim or Hindu, money does play a part in determining the position of the family members. Of course their parents love their children all the same, but no doubt they LIKE some more than others. In fact, I've seen that parents who are financially dependent on their daughters have very different opinions about females as compared to the society. Why? Because they know a female is keeping them alive.

Another point is that you said that the Western nations are suffering from social justice and problems related to wealth distribution? How so? They aren't perfect, but the wealth distribution in, say America is a hundred times more fair than in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Also, how do they have a justice problem (compared to India or Pakistan)?

Finally, I agree with you that the Indian practices such as the caste system may have helped them in the past, but can't survive in the current age. I fear that the same problem is plaguing the Muslims. Their practices may have helped them in the past, but are holding them back now. For example the Muslim tendency for war helped them initially, but has had disastrous consequences for Muslims in the current era.

Another problem with Muslims is their absolutism. Undoubtedly this initially served to unite the Arabs under a single leader and kept Islam from fracturing into a number of different faiths, but in this day and age, this is a major problem as more and more Muslim beliefs and practices conflict with modern civilization.

The biggest reason for all of this is childhood indoctrination. No sane man would want to kill another just for working on Sunday unless he has been indoctrinated as a child.

You mentioned that women are more religious than men, there is a simple reason for that: they have undergone much much more indoctrination than men, religious as well as cultural i.e. beliefs such as that they are inferior to men, that it is the responsibility of the man to provide financially etc. These cultural and religious beliefs both strengthen each other (since both are basically saying the same things) and women come out as even more religious then men. We should also remember that women are responsible for 99% of the discrimination that other women face in our society