Haha I get it now :P

How many financially independent people have you seen who don't work? Women can never be financially independent unless they work and without financial independence there can be no equality. You can talk for hours about morals behind equality, but you know that no two groups can be equal unless they are equal in wealth. Blacks are still now equal to whites in the US because whites have greater financial power.

What's wrong with it? The Homo genus has been around for 4 million years and the Homo Sapiens (our specie) for 300,000-400,000 years and for all this time, until about 12,000 years ago when farming started, women have worked as much as men.

And thus Islam keeps women perpetually poor by discouraging them from working. And since Muslim women are poor, they have fewer rights. There is a definite relationship between wealth and rights, you know that. Not in books, but in real life.

Honestly this point is below your level bro, you know full well that working to remain independent is not being oppressed. Independence (for a man, a country, everyone) is precious. But Islam is a great religion, no? Maybe it should have been ever greater, should have freed all men from working too, angels should have thrown down food...

The UK has no such law, it used to, in case of the Royal Family, but even that has been amended, are there any other states?

Then we agree to disagree BTW, you didn't tell me, would you theoretically support 50% share for women when the participation of women in the labor force is 50%?

Hmm...Nobody here is saying that women are not allowed to do work...But I would say at a place when Islam has imposed on men to earn as their duty freeing women from all duties, Islam has given more freedom to women to participate in National development. Woman is free to do any thing she want instead of men who have boundaries...Women can better serve without even having burden of responsibilities...I will give my example...During my graduation all the way I had to support my family financially because I thought it's my duty and responsibility in crisis hours but it harmed my studies and health a lot...If I would be a Woman, I may then get freed from all that thinking and social pressure of being a boy and then I may have now a better understanding of my degree with a healthy Asian women body... But Alhamdulillah He made me better then all my batch fellows due to just my intentions...Women can and must play role and it's not necessary that if you are financially strong you can serve better...If you are a billionaire but your Wife is daughter of DG ISI.."Jaan sooli pe"...
Please have a observation from your daily life..Have survey and see what is opinion of "Independent Women" in our societies...99% of them will say "Kahan Phans gae hen" "Mard kisi kaam ka ho to aurat q bahar nikle Hassan bhai " "Bachey bhi paida kar k do aur kamao bhi Azaab"... Jab Puri Qaum kaam chor ho to chahe wo Aurat ho ya Mard...Does n't matter...

Islam never discouraged women from working...I know the Quranic verse saying "Gharon men tiki raho"...We must see what was the purpose then...And You know by just remaining in homes now a days you can earn, you can serve even...See "Last Island" here on forum she is serving us from her desktop which is supposed to be in home usually...Still that verse can be explained in modern times and can allow women to get out now in the hour of crisis but I'm not a jurist to deliver a Fatwa..

You can even see in villages our women are working in fields, they manage Livestock beautifully etc...There are women who are stronger then men.."Malkani Sahiba" "Chauhdhrayin" "Numberdarni" etc...If you come here in Faisalabad, every second School Principal (Private School) is a female...Even in Co-education systems...This is another face of our Patriarchal society as usually seen by west...

In systems where one child inherits all of the land—such as the traditional
Germanic practice of primogeniture in which all land passes to the eldest son—parcels tend to be larger and farmers work a single plot of land. This is the norm in Northern Europe and in the principal areas of Northern European colonization—the Americas, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand. (Human Geography by Debilj 10th Ed) I had known this source so I quoted. And at least it's not better then 1400 years old our poor Islam which is according to you have become "obsolete"..

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

"A young girl like Malala is in danger of co-option within ‘the great game’, to justify imperialist aggression, which deploys the reductionist rhetoric of fighting against repressive ideologies and entrenched patriarchal cultural norms."
Arundhati Roy

Above is the quote of Arundhati roy taken from Express tribune. I was taken away by her intelligent choice of words to speak what she really feels about the most controversial teen. Niether did she blame Malala nor did she worship her, that also quite convincingly.

Below is the video link for more curious people.
http://www.awaztoday.tv/News-Talk-Sh...e-Winners.aspx

__________________
And Allah Knows, while you know not. (Al-Quran)

huh..Most controversial writer of India talking about controversies...

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

Please tell me about the people who are participating in national development without working.

Such as?

A degree is the means to an end and that is earning money (in 99% of the cases), so unless you earn money through your degree what's the use of it? A women (or anyone) who doesn't work after getting her degree has only wasted resources dIn any case you have given your example, I can just as easily give mine. MashAllah my family is very well off and I can live my life on my father's money, still I work hard, helping my uncle in his business, studying for CSS, studying for GMAT etc etc, why? For independence!

I didn't say that. I just said that there is a relationship between rights and your financial condition. Do you deny this?

This example can be twisted around to support my argument as well. Why the daughter of DG ISI? If you wife HERSELF is the US Secretary of State tb b jaan sooli pe

Are you implying that all males in the West are useless? As for kahan phans gay wali baat toh that is because of our society's attitude towards working women. That's again because lots of people don't think its proper for Muslim women to work, so that another glorious achievement of religion.

No Islam doesn't directly discourage women, but does it subtly, through this whole thing of men being being responsible for everything etc. I already explained the point in my previous post

Brother would you rather get a salary or serve on a forum?

Its only in villages that women are really working, in fact almost all women in rural areas work. However they still don't get any rights because they don't get any money for working on their own fields. Its just like house work for them. And no money = no rights. On paper you and the guy who collects rubbish from your house are both Pakistanis and have the same rights. But why do you have more rights than him in the real world? Because you are RICHER.

I'm not an law expert, but when I searched on Google I didn't find any evidence that the system is still used. Also, I searched about German inheritance law and again there was no mention of eldest son inheriting. Every time I searched about Primogeniture I was directed to pages about the Middle Ages in Europe. But maybe I missed something, so can you please post the actual law of some European state that says that only the eldest son inherits?

BTW as I said earlier if something wrong is happening in Germany I'm against that too and if Islam is unfair to women I'm against that too.

I don't think patriarchy is limited to Islam. This form of social setup evolved across all cultures and societies throughout the world and almost all religions tend to protect it. This form of social structure has been so successful that it's still present, and there's no to very historical evidence of any matrilineal or matriarchical socities, and whichever ones did evolve historically couldn't sustain themselves . Nevertheless it's not that patriarchy is free of problems and an ideal setting, today many things have changed that supported it in the past, for example economic concerns of agricultural age, men were better suitable for labor, farming and cultivation due to physical endurance and strength but today much of the process of production is automated . Or for example protection, today we have large national societies where states take responsibility of protecting you and your economic assets . And yes Islam does protect patriarchy. And when looking at Pakistani society, I notice that the biggest hurdle to women's emancipation are women themselves . Many women who work and earn still claim that it's not their responsibility and they are doing it for some form of 'majboori' . Apparently this trend is changing among young girls who are challenging boys in some fields , but yet again they still 'encourage' their husbands to remain ahead of them by seeking 'better earning spouses' .

__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

Before the advent of Islam the social set up was matriarchal and it brought a lot of evils and lead to disintegration of social values among both men and women...Gender based courage is some what personal as well...We have a long list of strong women throughout the history from Malka Saba of King Solomon's time to Asma Jahangeer (she was my favourite since I saw her picture in a Newspaper with cigarette and then researching on her gave me quite a good insight of her personality although I'm allergic to cigarette),Hazrat Ayesha/Khadija R.A to Razia Sultana (however she fled with a negro in the end but it does n't matter), Jhansi ki Rani to Sonia Gandhi and west have only one the Hilary Clinton to Monica Lewnisky or Lady Gaga to Selena Gomez...Even if you watch Hollywood movies you can better understand what is the "status" of women there & watching their t.v serials can give you better insight (and you can see where the respect is more)...To see ours you can see "Mera Sultan" where one pretty woman ruined the Kingdom of "Sulaiman The Magnificient" the ruler of 3 continents ...Even one of our Ummayyad Caliph Yazid II died in the sorrow of a slave girl
And we Always forget while mentioning that our greatest Jurist Imam Abu Hanifa was so called due to his Daughter Hanifa R.A...
I agree that Not so enough opportunities our women have got, but still they have got enough that at least one "Madam Curie" can come from them...But out of millions highly educated women we have n't got even a single yet...

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

the social order that existed in pre Islamic arabia cannot be described as a matriarchical society, almost all the Chiefs were men and so were pre Islamic pagan religious leaders, e.g. abu sufyan or abu jahal . Having a queen doesn't make a society Matrilinial, for example many countries had queens ruling them while women were still considered 'subhuman' in the cultures . Patriarchy and patriarchal values favor men's rule and their increased participation in social, economic and political functions, however a matriarchy is a very different thing altogether .

__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

No, patriarchy dominated much of the world and still does to some degree, but the tide of misogyny is receding in most countries except Islamic ones (with some exceptions of course) where the old order is propped up by religion. Brother until the 18th century societies based on inequality (feudal Europe, slavery in US etc) were also very successful

Hit the nail right on the head! Also, its women who train (their daughters) as well as force (their daughters in law) to treat men like gods and again its women who teach their sons to treat women like garbage. One would think that a slave would be against slavery, but clearly that is not true of Pakistan women.

Another thing that I find very weird is that women are usually involved in all family decisions, but in the end they push the men to the front and say to each other "Ye faislay karna to mardon ka kaam hai ji"