history proves what??? the so-called individulaism whcih was first empasised by martin luther..he said like that.ultimately they divide the religion into two major branches ;protestents and catholics.and forced to chnage catholics .ultimately catholics converted into anglicans.Islam political sysytem is fabricated with religion.to split it from plitics is like one isolated soul from flesh.

himarey atwar and soch to bilkul magrib ke tara ho gae ..hum vo karty hen jo wo khty hen.we have no brains??? hum goongey ,behery hen .we have no reasoning power

Regarding your claim about Islam, I have a question.

Who established the the office of Caliph, the most important of the political institutions of early Islamic history? Was it established by Quran ( ref. verse)? Or was it established by Prophet Muhammad (ref. Hadith other than Waqia e Khum e Ghadeer)?

As per my knowledge of Islamic history (correct me if I am wrong), in a short while after Prophet's death, three different meetings had been convened to decide about the Prophet's successor. Ali, Zubair, and Talha consulted privately in Fatima's home while Abu Bakar, Umer and Abu Ubayda and other Muhajireen debated in the Masjid e Nabvi. News was brought that the Ansaar were meeting in the house of Bani Saida, and Abu Bakar, Umer and Ubaida went there where in a course of heated debate Abu Bakar was chosen as the first caliph, and so was invented the office of Caliph, and since this was an IJTEHADI AMAL, therefore I doubt your claim that "Islam political sysytem is fabricated with religion."


The relation between Islam and politics as we Pakistani know it, is based on some verses iqbal, and was elaborated by Maodudi (theo-democracy) and implemented to an extent by ZIa. Iqbal's most quoted verse in this regard is:
جدا ہو دیں سیاست سے تو رہ جاتی ہے چنگیزی
But the thought of Iqbal as a poet are somewhat different from the thoughts of Iqbal as a political leader:
Poet Iqbal says:
ان تازہ خداوں میں بڑا سب سے وطن ہے
جو پیرہن ہے اس کا وہ مذہب کا کفن ہے

But Iqbal the political leader says in his Allahabad address:

"I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sind and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single State. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated North-West Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of North-West India.
Hindus should not fear that the creation of autonomous Muslim states will mean the introduction of a kind of religious rule in such states.(note that not only Jinnah but Iqbal also was against theocracy) I have already indicated to you the meaning of the word religion, as applied to Islam. The truth is that Islam is not a Church". (note that Church was a political institute)

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He who has a why to live can bear almost any how.

Any example from the history?
Regards

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Try not to become a man of success but a man of value.

[QUOTE=Saleeqa Batool;332287]As for as Quid-e-Azam vision for future of the state is concerned , he never wanted to establish the state on religious grounds. His policy statment on 11th August 1947 while addressing the first session of constitutional assembly speaks volumes of his vision towards future outlook of Pakistans constitutional and legislative framework.He appointed Mr Mandal as First Law Minister of Pakistan, so one can assume that what role a Hindu can play in islamization of legislation.



i think ap meri bat nahi samajh pai hain ya phir mujhy ap ki bat ki samajh nhi ayi hai.

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"Ajab Faiz hai "AAQA" ap ki muhabbat ka, DAROOD ap pay parhoon aur khud sanwar jaon"

[QUOTE=Razzi;332715]The founder must have appointed Mr. Mandal for legislating the civil laws, not the Islamic laws.

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Try not to become a man of success but a man of value.

@Jazib rumi:

You may be right sir, but even if we adopt secularism do you think it's going to do us any good?

I think the problem lies with our attitudes (at both, individual and national levels); we've been vacillating b/w two extremes, an extremely religious codes of Arabian law and the secular system of the west (a hangover from our colonial masters) that is. You adopt whichever system, it's not going to affect Pakistan, until and unless we change our attitudes/outlook (at both the levels).

caliphate system was established by no doubt khulfa rashida .i am unable to provide u source due to pacuity of time but will provide later. hazrat muhammd (saw) ke khawb ce regardin ahadeth ap paren wah pe aap ko ptaat chaley ga is ko qaim Allah talah ne kiya .qk aap ke khawb Allah talah ke eahkamt me shumar hooty sath jub rehmat e ulmieen basharat be dein adn khawb ke tabeer den .khawb me apney alfaz me bata dety hoo ..app ne hazt abu bakar ce kaha ke me en khawb baikha he ke tum ek dool well me daltey hoo jub isko nikaltey hoo to tum nikal nae paty tub hazt umer(ra) aaty hen and wo bht aasani ce us dool ko well ce nikaltey hen..aap ne hazt abu bakar ce pooch abaao is khawab ke tabeer kiya he to hazt abu bakar ne farmaya aap ke baad me hakoomat karuun ga but wo thorey arsey ke hoge but hazt umer ko dooer e hakoomat khoob hoga..hazoor e pak(saw) ne farmya tum ne bilkul thek farmya

nabi ka taluq dirct Allah ce hota ..so ALLAH ke ehkam nabi ke zaraey chaltey ..but ye silsala jub khtam ho jae to ek naib ke zarorat party he jo ALLAH ka muqarar karda ho..ye do naibb ALLAH ne muqarar kiyae and is ce khilafat ka silsala agey chala

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

I heard that Hadith and also some other Hadiths of the kind. But whether or not the Prophet nominated any one as his successor, or whether he nominated Abu Bakar or Ali, it is somewhat controversial. For example, Amir Ali wrote in his book "The Spirit of Islam"(reference book for CSS Islamic History paper):
"It is generally supposed that the Prophet had not expressly designated any one as his successor in the spiritual and temporal government of Islam; but this notion is founded on a mistaken apprehension of facts, for there is abundant evidence that many a time the Prophet had indicated Ali for the vicegerency. Notably on the occasion of the return journey from the performance of the Farewell Pilgrimage during a halt at a place called Khumm, he had convoked an assembly of the people accompanying him, and used words which could leave little doubt as to his intention regarding a successor, "Ali", said he, "is to me what Aaron was to Moses. Almighty God! be a friend to his friends and a foe to his foes; and frustrate the hopes of those who betray him." (Chapter: The political division and Schisms pg 292-293)

The subject that who was the rightful successor of Prophet Muhammad is controversial and never ending, and this is not the topic of present discussion (and hence we are not going to dicuss it any further). But one thing is very clear that the selection of every Caliph was made through a different procedure, and hence, I suppose that it was an IJTEEHADI AMAL. And if it is really so then what is the credibility of this statements that “Islam political sysytem is fabricated with religion.to split it from plitics is like one isolated soul from flesh”, since if this were the case, Islam would have given us a complete political system or at least guided us how to choose a ruler.

Yes I believe in the goodness of liberalism and secular democracy. This is because I held Islamization of the country by Zia (on the basis of Madudi's concept of theo-democracy,which is essentially faulty.) responsible for the bloodshed we have seen in Pakistan in last three decades whether in sectarian violence or in Talbanisation venture.

Jinnah says,"Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equity, justice, and fair play to everybody." ... "We follow the teachings of Muhammad (PBUH) in which all are equal in rights, dignity and self respect." Ab baat agar itni si hay tou Islamic Republic chor main "SUPER ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN" ko bhi support karnay kay liye tayar hoon. Laikin Islamists ka agenda kuch or hay. Bomb blast or sucide attacks kay zariye tabahi or qatal e aam isi theo democracy or ghalba e Islam ki fikri tahreek ki amli shakal hay. Or yaad rakhain jo kasht o khoon Islam kay naam per hum daikh rahay hain that is just a tip of the iceberg. Islami riasat ka jo taswur hamain bhut attract karta hay us main hamaray or hamaray bachon kay liye sirf halakat hay.

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He who has a why to live can bear almost any how.

You may be right sir, but I know one thing that Islam is not only a religion but a complete conduct of life. Islam (religion) can not be alienated from politics and vice versa. As for Zia's policies etc, I would say fault lay in his implementation rather than in the system.

Daikhain baat agar itni hi general hay tu main app say cent percent agree karta hoon. Laikin masla Islami Riasat ki specific detail main hay.

I quote one example. Maududi Sb likhtay hain kay Islami Inqeelab kay baad

مسلمان آبادی کو نوٹس دے دیا جائے کہ جو لوگ اسلام سے اعتقاد” و عملا” منحرف ہو چکے ہیں ، وہ ایک سال کہ اندر اندر اپنے غیر مسلم ہونے کا باقاعدہ اظہار کر کہ ہمارے نظام اجتماعی سے باہر نکل جائیں۔ اس مدت کہ بعد (یعنی وہ اگر کہیں نہ جائیں) تمام قوانین اسلامی ان پر نافذ کئے جایئں گے ، دینی فرائض و واجبات کے التزام پر انہیں مجبور کیا جائے گا اور پھر جو دائرہ اسلام سے باہر قدم رکھے گا اسے قتل کر دیا جائے گا۔



Now what is your opinion about this aspect of Islamic State?

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He who has a why to live can bear almost any how.