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  #91  
Old Saturday, June 16, 2012
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Originally Posted by mukt View Post
The constitution wasn't written in a day or two and neither was it a single party constitution or a one man show, 1973 constitution is a consensus constitution and the article 239(4) ONLY implies that creation of new provinces is NOT possible, only alteration of the limits of the provinces is possible.

Kindly quote an article that implies and/or supports your argument for the creation of new provinces?
I do not know the legal aspects about the creation of province but do know that the majority of people have been demanding seraiki province for many years. So it is necessary to listen their demand and pave the way for the creation of this province. In this regard we should not just stuck to constitution but also listen the stakeholder, the people who really matters in this regard. Once again i want to let you know that i do not know about the legal aspects but do know that same article is interpreted in various ways a kind a subjective thing.
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  #92  
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Exclamation legal aspect

There is no legal hurdle in creation of new provinces.
You can consult any law expert.
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  #93  
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I do not know the legal aspects about the creation of province but do know that the majority of people have been demanding seraiki province for many years. So it is necessary to listen their demand and pave the way for the creation of this province. In this regard we should not just stuck to constitution but also listen the stakeholder, the people who really matters in this regard. Once again i want to let you know that i do not know about the legal aspects but do know that same article is interpreted in various ways a kind a subjective thing.
I am not a lawyer neither a law expert however from what I can understand with my little knowledge of law and constitution, it is not LEGALLY possible to create a new province.

Furthermore, Just because people have been demanding doesn't make it a right thing to do, the people supported martial laws every now and then by referendums so was that the right thing to do as well? You can't just make any LAW because the people want it, constitution restricts some law making and pakistan is not a country with NO constitution like the British so what you are saying is something good to be considered by a country with no constitution i.e just make what the majority wants a LAW, also making new province is not even just a LAW, it's reconfiguration of the FEDERATION of Pakistan.

Also, Do you really think the people who drafted the constitution had no wisdom and vision for the future? I mean read 239(4) yourself, doesn't it clearly implies that the making of new provinces shall NOT be considered however alteration can be done? Why isn't there any other article in the constitution that hints or implies or supports the creation of new provinces if there is one that implies that new provinces can't be created?

Making provinces is not the solution, Things will not change.. Only more problems will be created, everyone will want a new province then and If you don't give them they will feel being treated unjust and will start saying "OH if X can be given provincial status, why not Y" and the game will never end.

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Originally Posted by sabahatbhutta View Post
There is no legal hurdle in creation of new provinces.
You can consult any law expert.
Have you consulted any law expert? If yes, What were his/her arguments in support of claim that it is LEGALLY possible? I seriously think that it is not LEGALLY possible considering the constitution of Pakistan to make a new province.
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  #94  
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Default Legal Expert Opinion on New Provinces

A new debate has taken hold of the country whether the number of existing provinces be maintained or new provinces should be carved out of the existing provinces.
In the above context, provisions of Article 239(4) of the Constitution of Pakistan 1973 are relevant to mention. In Articles 238 and 239, the Constitution empowers the Parliament to make any amendment in the Constitution by an act of Parliament. The procedure in detail, to affect an amendment is given in Article 239 of the Constitution. In view of this author, clause (4) of Article 239 needs to be read with Article 1 of the Constitution to achieve the purpose of creating new provinces out of the existing provinces. For convenience, I reproduce clause (4) of Article 239, which reads as under:
“A bill to amend the Constitution which would have the effect of altering the limits of a Province shall not be presented to the President for assent unless it has been passed by the Provincial Assembly of the Province by votes not less than two-thirds of its total membership.”
If the demand of taking out the Abbotabad Division etc is granted to carve out the province of Hazara from the present province of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, it would certainly alter the limits of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province. Thus clause (4) of Article 239 would be attracted. Likewise, Article 239, clause (4) would also be attracted in case Saraiki province is created or the state of Bahawalpur is restored/Bahawalpur is made a new province. Likewise, Article 1 of the Constitution would also be required to be amended in accordance with the provisions of Articles 238 and 239 of the Constitution.

Nowadays, as noted above, in Pakistan demand for new provinces is increasing almost in all existing provinces. Before the governments in Pakistan decide to concede to the demand of making new provinces, a commission consisting of experts in different areas may be constituted following the Indian experience.

He says its possible to make new provinces as done in india.

quoted the words By Syed Shabbar Raza Rizvi: The writer is a former judge of the Lahore High Court and former Advocate General of Punjab.
(Source: Pakistan Today dated January 15, 2012)
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  #95  
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Have you consulted any law expert? If yes, What were his/her arguments in support of claim that it is LEGALLY possible? I seriously think that it is not LEGALLY possible considering the constitution of Pakistan to make a new province.
Yes, I have consulted thats why i am saying this with confidence.You can consult any law expert yourself for the confirmation.
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  #96  
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Originally Posted by alimallah View Post
A new debate has taken hold of the country whether the number of existing provinces be maintained or new provinces should be carved out of the existing provinces.
In the above context, provisions of Article 239(4) of the Constitution of Pakistan 1973 are relevant to mention. In Articles 238 and 239, the Constitution empowers the Parliament to make any amendment in the Constitution by an act of Parliament. The procedure in detail, to affect an amendment is given in Article 239 of the Constitution. In view of this author, clause (4) of Article 239 needs to be read with Article 1 of the Constitution to achieve the purpose of creating new provinces out of the existing provinces. For convenience, I reproduce clause (4) of Article 239, which reads as under:
“A bill to amend the Constitution which would have the effect of altering the limits of a Province shall not be presented to the President for assent unless it has been passed by the Provincial Assembly of the Province by votes not less than two-thirds of its total membership.”
If the demand of taking out the Abbotabad Division etc is granted to carve out the province of Hazara from the present province of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, it would certainly alter the limits of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province. Thus clause (4) of Article 239 would be attracted. Likewise, Article 239, clause (4) would also be attracted in case Saraiki province is created or the state of Bahawalpur is restored/Bahawalpur is made a new province. Likewise, Article 1 of the Constitution would also be required to be amended in accordance with the provisions of Articles 238 and 239 of the Constitution.

Nowadays, as noted above, in Pakistan demand for new provinces is increasing almost in all existing provinces. Before the governments in Pakistan decide to concede to the demand of making new provinces, a commission consisting of experts in different areas may be constituted following the Indian experience.

He says its possible to make new provinces as done in india.

quoted the words By Syed Shabbar Raza Rizvi: The writer is a former judge of the Lahore High Court and former Advocate General of Punjab.
(Source: Pakistan Today dated January 15, 2012)
Let's not use India as an example, India is a UNION and Pakistan is a FEDERATION! Examples to relevant honay chahiyi, dunno where was the mind of respected former judge while quoting india as an example, lol
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  #97  
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Originally Posted by mukt View Post
What were his/her arguments in support of claim that it is LEGALLY possible? I seriously think that it is not LEGALLY possible considering the constitution of Pakistan to make a new province.
The Constitution does not mention anything about Talukas, Sub-Divisions, Districts and Divisions but they can be created and reshaped legally , the only problem with creating new provinces is its colossal political implications.
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  #98  
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Kashif -- Can you bring forth the articles in constitution that supports such amendment? And can you highlight some major political implications that you fear the country has to encounter?

I don't think creating new provinces in Pakistan is legally possible, but I am willing to learn if you can come up with some solid evidence
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Originally Posted by mukt View Post
Kashif -- Can you bring forth the articles in constitution that supports such amendment? And can you highlight some major political implications that you fear the country has to encounter?

I don't think creating new provinces in Pakistan is legally possible, but I am willing to learn if you can come up with some solid evidence
Well dear neither am I Constitutional or Legal expert nor do I study these things , and neither have I googled anything about them nor have I consulted any legal expert (because jitne wakeel utni baaten, pata hee nahin kon sahi kon ghalat ), but the very first paragraph of the Introductory Part of the constitution reads following:

1. The Republic and its territories
(1) Pakistan shall be a Federal Republic to be known as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as Pakistan. [1](2) The territories of Pakistan shall comprise :- (a) the Provinces of [1A]Balochistan, [1B]Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, the Punjab and [1C]Sindh; (b) the Islamabad Capital Territory, hereinafter referred to as the Federal Capital; (c) Federally Administered Tribal Areas; and (d) such States and territories as are or may be included in Pakistan, whether by accession or otherwise. (3) [2] [Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament)] may by law admit into the Federation new States or areas on such terms and conditions as it thinks fit.]

If we go according to this, the only amendment required would be just addition or modification of name(s). Now how does Majlis-e-Shoora reach such terms and condition to allow peaceful bifurcation of an existing province is a matter of local politics .

P.S. again this is my own logic so do not count it as anything, you may consult some expert.
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  #100  
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Well dear neither am I Constitutional or Legal expert nor do I study these things , and neither have I googled anything about them nor have I consulted any legal expert (because jitne wakeel utni baaten, pata hee nahin kon sahi kon ghalat ), but the very first paragraph of the Introductory Part of the constitution reads following:

1. The Republic and its territories
(1) Pakistan shall be a Federal Republic to be known as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as Pakistan. [1](2) The territories of Pakistan shall comprise :- (a) the Provinces of [1A]Balochistan, [1B]Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, the Punjab and [1C]Sindh; (b) the Islamabad Capital Territory, hereinafter referred to as the Federal Capital; (c) Federally Administered Tribal Areas; and (d) such States and territories as are or may be included in Pakistan, whether by accession or otherwise. (3) [2] [Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament)] may by law admit into the Federation new States or areas on such terms and conditions as it thinks fit.]

If we go according to this, the only amendment required would be just addition or modification of name(s). Now how does Majlis-e-Shoora reach such terms and condition to allow peaceful bifurcation of an existing province is a matter of local politics .
"MAY BY LAW ADMIT INTO THE FEDERATION NEW STATES OR AREAS" -- It no where says that break the existing province and then rename it.. If you read this with 239(4) it makes it even more clear that you can ALTER the limit of provinces, which means, that If you want to include more area or states you can include them within the already existing provinces by altering their limits.. isn't it?

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P.S. again this is my own logic so do not count it as anything, you may consult some expert.
I don't know of any constitutional law expert, If you do please recommend one.. I am really keen to know if it's legally possible or not to make a new province, from what I can understand, it is not LEGALLY possible.. That's just what I think, obviously I can be wrong.. but so far no argument that satisfies me :/
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