Friday, April 26, 2024
11:58 PM (GMT +5)

Go Back   CSS Forums > General > Discussion

Discussion Discuss current affairs and issues helpful in CSS only.

Reply Share Thread: Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook     Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter     Submit Thread to Google+ Google+    
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #11  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
Senior Member
Medal of Appreciation: Awarded to appreciate member's contribution on forum. (Academic and professional achievements do not make you eligible for this medal) - Issue reason:
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,549
Thanks: 618
Thanked 1,122 Times in 674 Posts
mhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaqib Javed View Post

My view about interest is that Holy Quran forbids us from "usury", that is an arbitrarily demanded profit and not from "interest" that is an institutionally determined rate.
As is mentioned in this Qurani ayah "O you who believe! Eat not Riba (usury) doubled and multiplied, but fear Allah that you may be successful."
Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #130
This is a highly debated topic so I guess you should avoid making direct inferences like that . Avoidance of usury is generally prescribed in all religions including even hinduism on moral ground like taking advantage of one's shortcomings. On this pretext many consider charging any interest on loans as usury. The governments use laws to regulate interest rates etc in order to place a legal control over it, however there is no religious grounds for allowing usury or interest .
__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mhmmdkashif For This Useful Post:
waqas izhar (Saturday, July 19, 2014)
  #12  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
Senior Member
Medal of Appreciation: Awarded to appreciate member's contribution on forum. (Academic and professional achievements do not make you eligible for this medal) - Issue reason:
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,549
Thanks: 618
Thanked 1,122 Times in 674 Posts
mhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud ofmhmmdkashif has much to be proud of
Default

The thing is modern capitalist economies arose during age of enlightenment, a period when rational thinking was encouraged and religious teachings were compromised or compensated.
"When money is lent on a contract to receive not only the principal sum again, but also an increase by way of compensation for the use, the increase is called interest by those who think it lawful, and usury by those who do not." This statement from commentaries on laws of England by William Blackstone would very much give you an idea how it was perceived at those times
__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mhmmdkashif For This Useful Post:
waqas izhar (Saturday, July 19, 2014)
  #13  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
waqas izhar's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Islamabad/Lahore/Peshawar
Posts: 920
Thanks: 823
Thanked 481 Times in 366 Posts
waqas izhar will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsified View Post
First off, I have absolutely no problem with the interest-free economy and it would be nice to do away with interest. However, the way you have described things is extremely simplistic. You have picked up two variables, interest and investment, and decided everything else based on them. Are there no other things affecting an economic system? From a small startup to multi-national organizations, institutions, and banks upon which the economy of this world is working, they are all based on interest. Even a common man benefits from interest. Educational loans are given on interest. How are we going to do away with all that? How are we going to sustain our trade with other countries? How are going to pay back the loan and receive it? The point is, it indeed will take a long time which is why we should be paying attention to more pressing needs.

Same goes for Zakat. It is an excellent system to overcome the economic disparity, to whatever extent, but why is that not happening in Muslim countries where the system is already in place? How is it that many non-Muslim societies have less economic disparity than Muslim countries even though they don’t have any concept of Zakat and their economies are interest based? Surely there are other factors in action?

And is that all there is to “Islamic” economic system? Abolition of interest and zakat? That does not make it a “system” does it? A general set of rules, sure, but system? No. As for social welfare, it does depend a lot on economic welfare but again, this is not the only variable.



So how are laws made in a Muslim state? Who is going to run the matters of the state?
my friend there are two measure with a government to control the economy: the fiscal policy and the monetary policy. the banking system operates on the monetary policy and the government revenue/expenditure runs on fiscal policy. i have told you about both.

what else do you want in an economic system? there are no guidelines for consumers or producers in capitalism or communism. in that regard islamic economic system is more comprehensive.

i did say books are available in the market about islamic economics. and economics is simple; politicians make it complicated.


who makes the law in an unislamic state? who implements it? who protects it?
the same is with an islamic state. only that the legislature is independent. and in case of a dispute i don't think they will attack model town or storm the supreme court.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaqib Javed View Post
Saving is directly proportional to interest rate. And investments are made out of savings. Lower the interest rate, lower would be incentive for saving which will lead to increased consumption or 'conspicuous consumption' leasing to higher inflation. Conspicuous consumption is the phenomenon that ails the Pakistan's growth model.

Have a look at this article
http://tribune.com.pk/story/525860/o...onomic-growth/

So dear you're linking your variables with wrong set of parameters.

My view about interest is that Holy Quran forbids us from "usury", that is an arbitrarily demanded profit and not from "interest" that is an institutionally determined rate.
As is mentioned in this Qurani ayah "O you who believe! Eat not Riba (usury) doubled and multiplied, but fear Allah that you may be successful."
Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #130
this is not how it works the way you mentioned it.
a higher interest rate leads to savings in the bank. then the bank gives away those savings as loans. those loans are then invested or consumed. the downside is that if you are getting an interest rate of 10 for your savings you won't invest it if the profits from investment is 7, 8 or 9. similarly if the profit is 9 and the bank is giving away loan at 11 then the investor won't take the loan. the money will stay in the bank and not become part of the investment.

also inflation is a function of too much money chasing too few goods. in case of a zero interest rate you are not only encouraging consumption but also investment. the higher demand will be met with a higher supply so do not worry about inflation. on the other hand a higher interest rate is also a cause of inflation as it does not leave investment to grow.

and conspicuous consumption is simply the consumption on luxuries. the government can anytime increase sales tax on luxuries to discourage their consumption.

whether you call it riba or usury or interest rate, it is the price of the time for which the loan is given and it is haram, simply. the person who gives riba, takes riba, records it and bears witness to it is equally sinful. if the sin of riba is divided in 70 parts then the sin of one part is like having incest with mother.

there is another hadith which says that halal and haram are well defined, it is your ventures in the grey areas in between that will lead to your destruction.

regards
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
Buddha's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Lahore
Posts: 573
Thanks: 315
Thanked 517 Times in 299 Posts
Buddha has a spectacular aura aboutBuddha has a spectacular aura aboutBuddha has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waqas izhar View Post
Employment is directly proportional to investment. Investment is inversely proportional to interest rate. Zero interest rate means highest possible investment. Higher investment will generate employmeny. Reduce poverty. Increase literacy. Reduce prices. Lower the cost of living. Increase efficiency. Increase quality of products. Increase exportable surpluses. Reduce budget deficit. Increase foreign exchange reserves. Reduce debt burden. Generate revenue for the government. Spare funds for social sector. Increase purchasing power of consumers. Increase economic welfare. And lead to social welfare.

Zakat will decrease inequalities of income. And it is an established fact that higher the inequalities higher the social evils and crime rate.

Islamic economics has guidelines for the consumer and the producer. The individual and the firm. Monopoly and distributor.

Why we forget that our Prophet S.A.W. was a merchant.

The article said that Islamic development is a gradual and patient process. Development takes centuries to happen.

Books on islamic economics are available in the market.

Islamic economic development includes self respect of the individual in the process. Which economic system takes that into account.

Social welfare is impossible without economic welfare. Economic and social justice is impossible in the so much heralded capitalist system. Why? Just one thing: interest rate. Abolish that and then see the development.

By the way did you know that the legislature in Islam is voluntary? I think that will answer your four questions. But for the political leader democracy is fine but when it comes to religious leaders we ask who is going to sit on the council.

Do ask questions though.
Regards
Zero interest rate will cause hyper inflation
__________________
He that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow (Ecclesiastes 1:18)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Buddha For This Useful Post:
Gypsified (Saturday, July 19, 2014)
  #15  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
Gypsified's Avatar
Senior Member
Qualifier: Awarded to those Members who cleared css written examination - Issue reason: CE 2014
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 370
Thanks: 97
Thanked 347 Times in 205 Posts
Gypsified will become famous soon enoughGypsified will become famous soon enough
Default

Although I’m not an economist and have a very rudimentary knowledge of how it works, I’ll point out a simple flaw in the very beginning of your cause and effect chain.

Quote:
Zero interest rate means highest possible investment.
Tell me, is interest rate the only factor affecting the investment? “Highest possible investment can be achieved by the elimination of interest" means that there are no other variables at work. Is that it? Are we keeping everything else constant? This is not a text book question but real life situation we are talking about. And if indeed there are other factors, and if indeed zero interest rates have other drastic effects as Buddha has mentioned, your whole chain of argument tumbles down. What do you say?

Quote:
what else do you want in an economic system? there are no guidelines for consumers or producers in capitalism or communism. in that regard islamic economic system is more comprehensive.
That is ethics, not economics.

Quote:
who makes the law in an unislamic state? who implements it? who protects it? the same is with an islamic state. only that the legislature is independent. and in case of a dispute i don't think they will attack model town or storm the supreme court.
You said that legislature in Islam in ‘voluntary’. May be I did not quite grasp what you were trying to say. Would you care to explain this a bit more? I would like to have a clear answer to the four questions I raised in a previous post.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Gypsified For This Useful Post:
Buddha (Saturday, July 19, 2014)
  #16  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lahore
Posts: 52
Thanks: 78
Thanked 38 Times in 26 Posts
Aaqib Javed is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waqas izhar View Post


this is not how it works the way you mentioned it.
a higher interest rate leads to savings in the bank. then the bank gives away those savings as loans. those loans are then invested or consumed. the downside is that if you are getting an interest rate of 10 for your savings you won't invest it if the profits from investment is 7, 8 or 9. similarly if the profit is 9 and the bank is giving away loan at 11 then the investor won't take the loan. the money will stay in the bank and not become part of the investment.


regards
If the interest rate is zero then every project seems feasible. Many gullible investors will rush to start things and in the process will not care much for efficiency. The result will be bulk of investment in those projects Which are not offering the best returns. Capital that can be used on better projects would be lost. Chances are that many incapable people will get loans from the banks because there is no tension of paying interest and not only they will not make any profits they will waste the original sum also.
Also increase in investment causes inflation because investment trickles down to labor force via wages and this higher income leads to higher demand for goods and thus the inflation.

"The current president of American federal reserve called for a tight monetary policy to check the Inflation wave in the country. She/he said that in previous years interest was lowered to encourage investment and employment but the time has come to increase interest."(I read her/his interview a year ago perhaps).

You can also read about Philips curve to know the link between investment and inflation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_curve
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lahore
Posts: 52
Thanks: 78
Thanked 38 Times in 26 Posts
Aaqib Javed is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waqas izhar View Post


this is not how it works the way you mentioned it.
a higher interest rate leads to savings in the bank. then the bank gives away those savings as loans. those loans are then invested or consumed. the downside is that if you are getting an interest rate of 10 for your savings you won't invest it if the profits from investment is 7, 8 or 9. similarly if the profit is 9 and the bank is giving away loan at 11 then the investor won't take the loan. the money will stay in the bank and not become part of the investment.


regards
If the interest rate is zero then every project seems feasible. Many gullible investors will rush to start things and in the process will not care much for efficiency. The result will be bulk of investment in those projects Which are not offering the best returns. Capital that can be used on better projects would be lost. Chances are that many incapable people will get loans from the banks because there is no tension of paying interest and not only they will not make any profits they will waste the original sum also.
Also increase in investment causes inflation because investment trickles down to labor force via wages and this higher income leads to more demand for goods and thus the inflation.

"The current president of American federal reserve called for a tight monetary policy to check the Inflation wave in the country. She/he said that in previous years interest was lowered to encourage investment and employment but the time has come to increase interest."(I read her/his interview a year ago perhaps).

You can also read about Philips curve to know the link between investment and inflation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_curve

Zero interest rate would be a disaster for economy. Because of hyper inflation money will lose its value. Cash savings of people will become worthless and people could only barter for everyday needs. The result will be a total collapse of the economy
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Aaqib Javed For This Useful Post:
Buddha (Saturday, July 19, 2014), Gypsified (Sunday, July 20, 2014)
  #18  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lahore
Posts: 52
Thanks: 78
Thanked 38 Times in 26 Posts
Aaqib Javed is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waqas izhar View Post
what else do you want in an economic system? there are no guidelines for consumers or producers in capitalism or communism. in that regard islamic economic system is more comprehensive.
There exist no such thing as an Islamic Economic System. Islam like any other religion gives ethical guidelines to promote fair economic practices. In principle, Islam endorses a laissez faire economy as is given in the following ayah
Then if they repent, are diligent in the prayer and pay zakah, leave them alone.
(9:5)

"This verse explains to the Idolaters of Arabia the conditions which they had to fulfil to become Muslim citizens of the state of Madinah. If this context of the verse is kept in consideration, it follows from the words  (fa khallu sabilahum: then leave them alone) that just as a state cannot tamper with the life, honour and freedom of expression of people who have acquired its citizenship after fulfilling the conditions stated in the verse, it also has no right to commit any excesses against their assets, wealth and property." from Mizan by Javed Ahmad Ghamidi


Fellas, faith is a very powerful force that can greatly improve our lives. The better Muslims we are, better we will be in our social interaction. We will be better friends, better sons and daughters, better husbands and wives and better professionals and tradesmen. Islam teaches us honesty, truth, tolerance, charity and law-abidance. And if those traits are there in the individuals who act in an economic system then that is an Islamic economic system. Same goes for the political system; if the political actors are honest, wise and God-fearing individuals then they form an Islamic Political system.
Obviously there are some directions, which are not specific to economic practices, given by Islam which a good Muslim will automatically follow. For example Islam's guidelines about Halal and Haram; that a person should not deal in terms of Haram goods. Rest whatever laws govt makes, a good Muslim is obliged to follow them. These laws could be about quality of goods, about tax, about hording of grain etc. A good Muslim is expected to follow the laws even if he is part of an "UnIslamic System".
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
waqas izhar's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Islamabad/Lahore/Peshawar
Posts: 920
Thanks: 823
Thanked 481 Times in 366 Posts
waqas izhar will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddha View Post
Zero interest rate will cause hyper inflation
how? you are only speaking of the demand side. what about the supply side? zero interest rate will not only increase consumption it will also increase investment. demand will be met by a quick supply. also interest rate becomes part of the production process at every step. interest rate raises prices at the time of mining, processing, transportation, production, distribution and sale. zero interest rate will actually reduce prices and not raise them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsified View Post
Although I’m not an economist and have a very rudimentary knowledge of how it works, I’ll point out a simple flaw in the very beginning of your cause and effect chain.



Tell me, is interest rate the only factor affecting the investment? “Highest possible investment can be achieved by the elimination of interest" means that there are no other variables at work. Is that it? Are we keeping everything else constant? This is not a text book question but real life situation we are talking about. And if indeed there are other factors, and if indeed zero interest rates have other drastic effects as Buddha has mentioned, your whole chain of argument tumbles down. What do you say?



That is ethics, not economics.



You said that legislature in Islam in ‘voluntary’. May be I did not quite grasp what you were trying to say. Would you care to explain this a bit more? I would like to have a clear answer to the four questions I raised in a previous post.
if you find any other factor other than interest rate for investment let me know. investment means not only production of goods and services but education, scientific research, public infrastructure and exploration as well. another factor affecting investment will be law and order situation.

the difference between western economics and Islamic economics is the fact that the west sees man as an organism whereas Islam sees him as a vicegerent. west says that there are scarce resources whereas Islam says that resources are plenty. the difference between both is of fundamental difference of their views about man and the universe.

the Islamic legislature is voluntary and independent. that means they do not have any interest in the passing or annuling of any law. compare that with modern legislatures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaqib Javed View Post
If the interest rate is zero then every project seems feasible. Many gullible investors will rush to start things and in the process will not care much for efficiency. The result will be bulk of investment in those projects Which are not offering the best returns. Capital that can be used on better projects would be lost. Chances are that many incapable people will get loans from the banks because there is no tension of paying interest and not only they will not make any profits they will waste the original sum also.
Also increase in investment causes inflation because investment trickles down to labor force via wages and this higher income leads to more demand for goods and thus the inflation.

"The current president of American federal reserve called for a tight monetary policy to check the Inflation wave in the country. She/he said that in previous years interest was lowered to encourage investment and employment but the time has come to increase interest."(I read her/his interview a year ago perhaps).

You can also read about Philips curve to know the link between investment and inflation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_curve

Zero interest rate would be a disaster for economy. Because of hyper inflation money will lose its value. Cash savings of people will become worthless and people could only barter for everyday needs. The result will be a total collapse of the economy
my friend Islamic banking works on sharia investments. it does not just give away loans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_investments

secondly in the present form of banking loans are given to earn interest from costumers. a zero interest rate means that modern banking system will have to go. because there is no profit for the bankers they are not idiots to just give away loans. and you might prepare a question about Islamic banking as a question did come in Islamiat 2014 paper .

the Phillips curve is a trade off between inflation and unemployment only in the short run. the long run Phillips curve is vertical i.e. fixed at a particular unemployment level. the long term solution is to shift the vertical Phillips curve to the left. how? by investing in long term development projects, education, infrastructure, research etc. and that can only happen with increased investment.

the depression was caused by lack of money. America now faces a problem of too much money thanks to a fluctuating, unreliable interest rate system.

lord Keynes is considered the father of modern economics. he pointed out a century ago that interest rate is an impediment in achieving full employment.

regards
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Saturday, July 19, 2014
Buddha's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Lahore
Posts: 573
Thanks: 315
Thanked 517 Times in 299 Posts
Buddha has a spectacular aura aboutBuddha has a spectacular aura aboutBuddha has a spectacular aura about
Default

I'm wondering how are you saying that zero interest rate is miraculously gonna fix the supply side?

Zero interest rate means people are going to spend, but that doesn't mean what they're going to buy is going to multiply. Investment does not mean that automatically we will have a huge supply! Resources are scarce. If they aren't scarce they come without price e.g. air.

Zero interest rate also means domestic investors will shift their FINANCIAL investments to other countries where there is at least rate of return, even a low rate of return(which is better than zero)!

They will supply rupee and demand foreign currencies esp. dollar or euro in foreign exchange markets which will depreciate the rupee. Result? Further inflation. Now depreciation in rupee will make imports more expensive! And that means Oil will be more expensive and it will raise other commodity prices which are linked to the Oil price. Inflation!

You're assuming investments are going to fix everything and beef up supplies. Can you tell us where will those investments come from and in what sectors will they be invested in? FDIs? Or domestic financial investors instead of taking their capital to financial markets abroad will decide let's invest in Pakistani mining or transportation? Risky business! Are their investments going to pay them back? Instead they will take a more reliable route and take their capital abroad to secure it.
__________________
He that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow (Ecclesiastes 1:18)
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Buddha For This Useful Post:
Aaqib Javed (Saturday, July 19, 2014), Gypsified (Sunday, July 20, 2014), incounternable (Saturday, July 19, 2014)
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Islamic Information safdarmehmood Islamiat 4 Thursday, June 28, 2018 08:09 AM
The constitution of the islamic republic of pakistan, 1973[1] IMTIAZ AHMAD KHAN Constitutional Law 0 Thursday, February 14, 2013 05:40 PM
What is Islamic Democracy? aliusama Islam 4 Friday, August 20, 2010 08:16 PM
Islamic Concept of Govt? Maha Khan Discussion 9 Friday, April 30, 2010 02:25 PM


CSS Forum on Facebook Follow CSS Forum on Twitter

Disclaimer: All messages made available as part of this discussion group (including any bulletin boards and chat rooms) and any opinions, advice, statements or other information contained in any messages posted or transmitted by any third party are the responsibility of the author of that message and not of CSSForum.com.pk (unless CSSForum.com.pk is specifically identified as the author of the message). The fact that a particular message is posted on or transmitted using this web site does not mean that CSSForum has endorsed that message in any way or verified the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message. We encourage visitors to the forum to report any objectionable message in site feedback. This forum is not monitored 24/7.

Sponsors: ArgusVision   vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.