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  #41  
Old Sunday, July 20, 2014
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You're denying there isn't any scarcity! Well I must stop here. Once you come to realize there is, we can have this discussion again. There's a reason you're sticking to food examples because you couldn't think of any other. As far as your examples of American grains are concerned, if they are true they must be seen in the context and taken as an exception because they're an exception. And they didn't bust the fact that there is scarcity. Instead of blindly taking the word of Islamic economists, whoever they are, take your time to think about it.
scarcity has nothing to do with the questions that i have asked.
but if you want it that way so be it
i have realized that there is scarcity, now answer the other questions please
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  #42  
Old Sunday, July 20, 2014
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Originally Posted by waqas izhar View Post
scarcity has nothing to do with the questions that i have asked.
but if you want it that way so be it
i have realized that there is scarcity, now answer the other questions please
Incentives? Yes it's profit. That's called interest. Rental on the capital. Take that away and there's no incentive.
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  #43  
Old Sunday, July 20, 2014
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example from history?
The persecution of Imam Ahmad bin Hambal and other reputed jurists of the time by Mamoon because they did not agree with what he stood for.

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how do you gauge the capability of a person? what is your parameter for this discussion?
Whatever parameters I have for gauging the capability of a person will not be acceptable to everyone. It would be acceptable to a handful of people. And the parameters of a person’s piousness and knowledge are even harder to define.

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isn't there slavery in Sind? aren't human beings sold even now? what abiut human trafficking?
Is slavery in Sind and human trafficking lawful?

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where was the voting system in the early days of Islam where women could not vote?
The voting of the Caliphs by the shoora. It was even beyond imagination that women could be included in those shooras which is why modern ideologues like Maodudi have called voting of the women strictly prohibited in Islam. What do you say? Also, what about woman being head of the state?

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it does not? i think it does. but iwill let you know if i am wrong.
No, it does not. It might guide about the relations between people of different faiths, but not nations. Because the concept of nationhood did not exist at the time.

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is it very important to select a legislative? forgive me but you are saying it as if it is very mandatory to select one. i aam not seeing the obvious thing here, guide me.
Yes it is. Without a legislature, and this is something you are constantly evading so be so kind as to give a straight answer for once, who will run the affairs of the state?

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who is asking you to be dependent on kafirs? for what are you dependent on them?
Yes, swish your magical wand so that we might let go of all the dependence. But you can start by not using your email ID which is provided by a kafir company. And this is just the beginning. BTW, how do you propose getting out of this dependence? I’m really interested in knowing because to be perfectly honest, this is clearly a case of argument for the sake of argument.

Bhuddha has made a wise decision not to argue anymore because the kind of examples and arguments (?) you are putting forward is really hard to contend with for too long.
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  #44  
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Originally Posted by Buddha View Post
Incentives? Yes it's profit. That's called interest. Rental on the capital. Take that away and there's no incentive.
i asked other questions too.

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Originally Posted by Gypsified View Post
The persecution of Imam Ahmad bin Hambal and other reputed jurists of the time by Mamoon because they did not agree with what he stood for.

so that makes mamoon right?

Whatever parameters I have for gauging the capability of a person will not be acceptable to everyone. It would be acceptable to a handful of people. And the parameters of a person’s piousness and knowledge are even harder to define.

you are gauging me by logic, and that is why buddha is not here anymore.

Is slavery in Sind and human trafficking lawful?

but it does exist.

The voting of the Caliphs by the shoora. It was even beyond imagination that women could be included in those shooras which is why modern ideologues like Maodudi have called voting of the women strictly prohibited in Islam. What do you say? Also, what about woman being head of the state?

then they must have a reason for that. but we have discussed that in detail already

No, it does not. It might guide about the relations between people of different faiths, but not nations. Because the concept of nationhood did not exist at the time.

i sent you a mail in that regard.

Yes it is. Without a legislature, and this is something you are constantly evading so be so kind as to give a straight answer for once, who will run the affairs of the state?

the executive. but the law is to be given by the independent legislature as i already mentioned. the executive can be elected as normal. and the legislature too but the legislature as i said can be composed of three houses. just like you have parameters for the present legislature, you can have quantifiable parameters for the third house as well.


Yes, swish your magical wand so that we might let go of all the dependence. But you can start by not using your email ID which is provided by a kafir company. And this is just the beginning. BTW, how do you propose getting out of this dependence? I’m really interested in knowing because to be perfectly honest, this is clearly a case of argument for the sake of argument.


sound economics . but then we should stop using these computers, cars, electricity etc. there is no dependence in using them. we bought them. they were not granted to us or loaned to us.

Bhuddha has made a wise decision not to argue anymore because the kind of examples and arguments (?) you are putting forward is really hard to contend with for too long.

contend with? does that mean you guys don't have answers or i am illogical? if illogical, how?
I am here to learn brothers and I accept that i don't know much but at least be fair and straightforward. i don't think we are in a competition here. what do you say?

regards
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  #45  
Old Sunday, July 20, 2014
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so that makes mamoon right?
Did I say he was right?

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but it does exist.
Cannibalism also exists in the world. What would you say about that?

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then they must have a reason for that. but we have discussed that in detail already
Yes, they must have. And we don’t have those reasons any more. Changing needs for changing times, see? And no, we haven’t discussed that. You asked me examples about changing needs, I gave this example and what is your answer? They must have a reason. Right, Hitler, Stalin, Ganges Khan – all of them had reasons for killing millions of people. Let’s call that lawful too.

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the executive. but the law is to be given by the independent legislature as i already mentioned.
But what is the method of the election of the executive and the legislature? That can be any method, right? No clear guidance from Islam.

To sum it all up, let me ask you a straightforward question: Is there a political system that Islam prescribes?
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  #46  
Old Sunday, July 20, 2014
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Default I don't know why?

I don't know why people bring ifs and buts with Islam. If you want to implement Islam then implement it. If it does not work, then riase your criticisms. We have faith in Allah and are certain that Islam is the best solution for humanity. Communism has failed, capitalism is failing. Learn how the structural unemployment has increased after the financial crisis. Learn the increasing wealth gap between the rich and the poor.
Now study the era where Islam is truly implemented. The Khilfat e Rashida. You will come to know that only with proper practice of zakat, there was no one in need of money after three years during Hazrat Umar's (R.A) caliphate. There was a perfect balance.
The thing is that islamic economics does not offer big luxuries. You will not become filthy rich in Islamic system. On the other hand a lot of current rich people will have to give up certain portion of their wealth under islamic system to bring equality. The rich know that. Money or wealth is power, giving it up means giving a portion of your power away.
Islamic economics provides two fundamental tools i.e zakat and interest free transactions. When implemented properly brings wonders as we know from the past and that is what Allah has promised.
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  #47  
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Is there a political system that Islam prescribes?

Yup political system can exist in Islam but there is one difference. The sovereignty belongs to Allah. Means the rules and laws given by Allah and Prophet Muhammad S.A.W will act as boundaries. Consider it like a circle. No human being is allowed to touch that circle. You can not make interest halal when Allah has made it haram. But under that boundaries, one can make laws and rules that do not conflict.
Means man can not act as God and think that he is sovereign and make his own laws while rejecting islamic laws.
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  #48  
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Yup political system can exist in Islam but there is one difference. The sovereignty belongs to Allah. Means the rules and laws given by Allah and Prophet Muhammad S.A.W will act as boundaries. Consider it like a circle. No human being is allowed to touch that circle. You can not make interest halal when Allah has made it haram. But under that boundaries, one can make laws and rules that do not conflict.
Means man can not act as God and think that he is sovereign and make his own laws while rejecting islamic laws.
Qibla you should have read the previous posts. That is just the thing we have been talking about. There is not such thing as "Islamic political system" (which is why the concept of Caliphate we scream about is a myth).

And of course, Islam prescribes certain limits and guidelines and within those limits, we can implement any political system that best suits the needs of our times.
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  #49  
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Did I say he was right?



Cannibalism also exists in the world. What would you say about that?



Yes, they must have. And we don’t have those reasons any more. Changing needs for changing times, see? And no, we haven’t discussed that. You asked me examples about changing needs, I gave this example and what is your answer? They must have a reason. Right, Hitler, Stalin, Ganges Khan – all of them had reasons for killing millions of people. Let’s call that lawful too.


we did. if i remember i mailed you and we had a lengthy discussion.
But what is the method of the election of the executive and the legislature? That can be any method, right? No clear guidance from Islam.

no.

To sum it all up, let me ask you a straightforward question: Is there a political system that Islam prescribes?

if you mean choosing the head of state? no
if you mean the law? yes

ok let me sum up too.
when you began this thread i said that the problems is with the economics. why?
i think a sound political/economics/social system is the one in which you are able to alleviate poverty and give opportunity to its citizens to explore their potential. what do you say?
democracy is the most widely accepted system of government and frankly there is no other choice.
democracy, not as in the books of political science but in reality is controlled by capitalists. right?
is democracy helping in achieving the objective i mentioned above?
you see whether it is democracy or monarchy you need economics to achieve that objective. and politics have always stood in its way. e.g. corn laws in UK.
that means we need to make changes.
luckily for us we do have a book which claims to be the book of the God who calls himself Allah.
our problem is that we want to gauge this book with logic, right?
so let's do that.
that is what i tried to do.
this book says no riba i.e interest. i just tried to analyze an economy with zero interest rate. you see in essence zero interest rate means: no banks. in my analysis i say that if we need to have a permanent solution we need to give it time i.e. at least a fifty years. but you guys probably want results tomorrow and that is impossible even with western economics.
in the end i accepted Buddha's assumptions and asked him questions in the language of western economics. he has yet to answer them.
he speaks of scarcity but i say there is none. i say if given enough time human beings would be able to harness the energy of the stars and move to other galaxies. Buddha finds my mining the moon ridiculous. but i am willing to accept scarcity.

but coming back to politics. you see what Islam says is that zakat is the law. if you don't pay zakat you are breaking the law. to implement zakat you do not need a particular political system, you just need the law.

but probably i am giving you headaches by now. so i will say here that the difference between you guys and me is that you are trying to interpret the Quran in light of modern times and i am trying to interpret the times with the Quran. cool off for a few days i will pop up that question soon.

regards
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  #50  
Old Sunday, July 20, 2014
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There's another difference. That is, you are constantly ignoring a simple question that I asked and the issue at hand. So instead of irrelevant debates (the arguments of which are faulty to the core form your side), I'll only repeat it: does Islam prescribe a political system? Does Islam prescribe a way to elect the legislature and executive? Or does Islam only give general ethical guidelines about it?
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