Dead wrong. If Pre-Islamic Arabic was a matriachal society I'm the King of Jupiter. There have been very few socities that were as anti-women as pre-Islamic Arabia and what Islam did to the barbarian Arabs is nothing short of a miracle. In 7th Century Arabia Islam was 500 years ahead of its time.

So respect comes from chaining up someone and feeding them and protecting them? My friend must respect his dog more than any other family member because he does all three and his dog doesn't have to work either. What exactly shows their position in the movies? Do normal women in the US jump off moving trucks like Angelina Jolie? No society can be judged by movies. 99% of the millions of women in the US are normal people, with basic rights to make their own decisions in life.


How is that an accomplishment or shows the freedom of women?

So what does that prove brother?

BTW I've noticed that you always talk about the past, it doesn't matter at all what happened in the past or what should have happened, what matters is what IS happening. The tide is turning against patriarchy, in at least half the world women are not beginning to take their rightful positions alongside men, as EQUALS. The question is whether Muslims will go with the tide or attempt to turn back the clock.

"The fact that certain clans prefixed their names with feminine names is perhaps an indication of an ancient matriarchal culture that existed in Arabia long before Islam. Group solidarity ("asabiyah") was the spirit of the tribe. It signified unconditional loyalty to fellow tribesmen. "Be loyal to thy tribe," was the motto of the time. "The clan's claim upon its members was strong enough to make a husband give up his wife." (Hitti, p. 27)

"In the origin, ancient Arabic tribes had matriarchal social structures.
A tribe had higher standing compared to others when its matriarch owned more husbands, particularly, captured enemy men. It was women who took the initiative of selecting their men. More often than than not, disputation for acquiring men resulted in tribal wars.
The Command of a tribe was in the hand of the woman who had the most of husbands.
Thus, it was common for the victor tribe to mutilate the husbands of vanquished tribes. It is no enigma why the three most venerated idols were women warriors such as Manat, Uzzat, and Lat. It is no enigma why the Prophet Mohammad was ready to strike a compromise with the tribes of Mecca, before being chased out of the city, to considering the three goddesses as valid supporters to the all-encompassing God Allah."

http://adonis49.wordpress.com/2010/0...s-matriarchal/

"Laws and customs in this tribal society varied from one area to another. For this reason, we find different accounts of women’s status during the days of Jahiliyyah. On the one hand, there are indications that women held high positions in the society and exerted great influence. They freely chose their husbands, had the right to divorce, and could return to their own people if they were not happy or well-treated. In some cases, they even proposed marriage. They were regarded as equals, not as slaves and were the inspiration of many poets and warriors. An example of a brave woman from this era is Fukayha who protected a man seeking refuge in her tent while being pursued by the enemy. She courageously covered him with her smock, and with her sword drawn, prevented his pursuers from capturing him until her brothers came to his defense, thereby saving his life. Many women had the gift of poetry, which they often dedicated to the dead. The fact that a hero's mother and sisters were deemed most worthy of mourning and praising him is cited as a proof of the high character and position of women in pre-Islamic Arabia." (R.A. Nicholson, A Literary History of The Arabs. Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, reprinted 1966, p. 88)

"They were the disintegration of the ancient matriarchal system" (A Short History of Islam by Mazhar-ul-Haq)

Yes, I am little bit in past and I'll tell you the reason behind..But first have look in some recent findings as well

"Many may think that women’s rights are only an issue in countries where religion is law, such as many Muslim countries. Or even worse, some may think this is no longer an issue at all. But reading this report about the United Nation’s Women’s Treaty and how an increasing number of countries are lodging reservations, will show otherwise."
http://web.archive.org/web/200404231...8/unwomen.html


I always quoted the past because Muslims were confident in their religion then and also were more close to their religion. By adopting the golden principle of "Ijtihad" we can still make our society better then that proposed by "Liberals"...We are backward because we've left our religion not for adopting it.

I can't argue a more on this fact...Please at least have a look on Maulana Modoodi's book "Islami Tehzeeb aur uskey Asool-o-Mubaadi"...I don't belong to Jamat-e-Islami but I still think on the fronts of ideologies Maududi fought well..
I was also growing quite liberal few years back but soon I found out it's religion which can only save us finally in this hour of crisis at both individual and national level...Finally, this book cleared all of my confusions...
If I still have failed in protecting Islam

Laa Kum Deenu kum Walyaa deen..
For you your religion, for me, my religion.

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If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

Yup that's agreeable . I was talking about success of Patriarchy in human history BTW . And religion alone is not the factor as it's obvious that it's been like that across all cultures and civilizations ever since humans transferred to agriculture 12 or 15 thousand years ago and started making civilizations. For example 20th century Japan had patriarchy but yet it was perhaps an irreligious culture . Industrial revolution and rise of nation states has a very short history compared to that, and post-industrial post-modern societies is very recent, it's only this short period when patriarchy has started reclining so rapidly thus what would be problems in its absense and their severity are not fully known yet . Nevertheless it's understandable that in today's world 'orthodox religion' has remained the only defense of 'our' patriarchal order and its values . Personally I don't believe using religion to suppress reason is going to do any service to religion and mankind or even country. But i think religious people themselves are to blame for their absolutist behavior, religion gives us a message to unite and improve our selves .

As about feminist movement, perhaps it still has a long journey to take before declaring 'victory over men' hahaha.


BTW love for sons in mothers is not limited to Pakistani women, I have noticed it even in White American mothers , even they seem to be loving sons more than daughters. Here is a poll result to support my claim http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...fferently.html.

For example most countries where patriarchy is reclining are the ones where 'disinclination towards marriage and family is normal', but here in Pakistan support for family remains deep entrenched. Now obviously religion protects family structure, but religion alone can't be the reason why family is supported because there are many benefits associated with it. There is a strong sense of group life, belonging, sharing and understanding associated with it, perhaps Pakistan is a country with one of the lowest divorce rates even compared to the rest of Muslim world . And there's a sense of security associated with it, looking at the performance of our government in providing security and justice many women themselves prefer old patriarchal values, it gives them satisfaction 'men are fighting for them' even if its in their own imagination hahahaha. Many of the female politicians are there owing thanx to their fathers, and they openly claim they support traditional family order and yet they somehow believe women will miraculously overcome men and emancipate themselves while keeping the same structure alive hahaha . Thus there is a level of dishonesty associated with the feminist pursuits in Pakistan as well. And then there is state of economy, our economy is still largely on the traditional agricultural path and the society is also largely agrarian which is an environment that favor those values and limits participation of women. And obviously religion and puritanism also play a part . In Muslim cultures puritanism is not limited to religious places, it becomes part of public life .

Ohh and yeah not to mention the sense of economic security, for many women there is a greater sense of economic security for women in the old patriotic order. For example in Pakistan I have noticed many women still saying 'kamana to mardon kaa kaam hai' . This means that they still feel it doesn't matter whether they find jobs or not, they won't be exploited for not working as much as men who might end up being a reproductory failure if he is not struggling and working hahahaha . Perhaps there are some very good reasons why slaves want to remain slave

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

Totally agreed.. and tell me practically what she did for education??? Did she open school in Pakistan for poor girls?? What peace work did she??
And the money prize is not for Pakistan, she will not even give single dollar to construct a school in Pakistan with her billions of prize money...

Patriotic=patriarchal

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

I can bet Muslims will keep attempting to turn back the clock . However success is not guaranteed, even if Muslim men do manage to stop the advance of women they might have to give up a lot much of what's held as traditional male superiority complex hahaha . cultural views of feminity need to be changed first and it appears they are changing, but what's unique about Muslim cultures is they have been able to maintain some puritanism for centuries, for out of wedlock relations in Muslim cultures are perhaps at the lowest whereas in other cultures they have always been common despite presence of strong patriarchal order. This can give Muslim men a lot of advantage as they tend to be more aggressive as well as protecting towards women hahahaha .

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

As I had mentioned in the previous posts...Muslim men must feel relaxed with women freedom...Finally, they are going to be in advantage...Have a highly ambitious wife who want to succeed in the career and you can relax on your couch eating pop-corn...and if on her side there are out of wedlock relations then living home alone can be proven a paradise for you as well...No need to punch a hooligan whistling on your wife saying "No Problem brother you have all freedom for expression " (Men to Azal se Ahimsa ka pujari hun ) you can save all your energy for healthy things like diapering your child, preparing meals for the family etc because just like in Europe a maid will takes 1000 dollars for a week and pick and drop as well, you are not going to afford all that "luxuries"...And our "Mazloom" tabqa of khwateen (although they have 2 maids average in "lower middle class" even, one for cleaning and one for washing clothes) when will be facing their cruel bosses abusing them for not achieving the tasks, they will finally decide that it's good to be home...
Again a new reforming feminist unit will raise the voice as "Naturists" proclaiming that being vigorous and more healthy then us "Men" are responsible for doing jobs not us...
Cycle repeats..
Ironically stating what a fun it would be in Matriarchy if despite of proposing them, women will be proposing the men and will whirling around, competing with each other arguing and pulling their hairs, a girl coming to " see the boy" and her father saying " Beta Kharhe hokar dikhao, beta baith k dikhao, side pose beta,kitna parhe ho beta "G Sir PhD ki he" acha acha to phir kaprhe to silai kar lete ho ge?? Save your ultimate status men Don't be a part of any conspiracy against you...There is a hidden agenda with all feminist activists

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If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

I am afraid that's not gonna happen bro, wife won't let you relax at home while she works . Not only will she demand you take care of the house but also work and earn so that the family income could be increased, and you still are the 'protector' and 'ceremonial head of the family' so any wrong will still be blamed upon you . And she will cut you off from the rest of the world including your friends and relatives . And even more troubling for you would be you won't be able to complain about anything because cultural views of manhood will cause you to feel disgraced and humiliated about the fact that you can't even control your house hahahaha . Although I am not married neither have a girlfriend, I tend to be highly women shy to the extent that I can't even be frank with relative women and girls, am largely restricted to mother and sisters in that regard, however I have noticed this in many 'modernizing' families of Pakistan hahahaha . Basically there's not much wrong with it because it works well for some men who largely lack confidence and initiative, the problem is feminist groups in Pakistan want all families to be like that, so that a matriarchy could be established soon even before the global feminist movement which itself is still struggling for it hahahahaha . No wonder us Pakistanis are way too eager to remain ahead of others at all costs . Our women are like us as well .

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

Nevertheless it's not to say that such speculations maybe used as justification for anything, as it commonly happens here, speculations and suspicions are used as justifications to curb something . Women have every right to seek freedom, but they must understand what they would need to sacrifice and what would be achieved. All the fruits can't be grasped in one hand hahahaha .

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

I think following "salient points" can be deducted from all this discussion

1. Malala is not a Jewish Lobbyist or a Free Mason so we must own her and try not to make an other Dr Abdus Salam for us.

2. Even if she is an agent, it does not matter, reason for her medal matters the most. and we need such lobbyist more then.

3. Malala is showing one of our faces in the world. Face of the only country made in the name of Islam. Let's "Save" our face.

4. According to a few Edhi deserves a noble prize, and Pakistanis have given him a Noble prize 2 days before.
At least Malala is safe away...Keep your self away dear daughter of Pakistan.
5. Most people agree Muslims have to "Change" now.
6.According to some people "Secularism" is the way and yes, these people have examples to give.
"Islamic Reformation" is just an idealistic situation yet, you cannot see it's example any where so "Secularism" is winning 'apparently'.

6. Women have more rights in West, but West have even more rights for "Pets" even.
7. Islam is not less in giving rights but it needs some exploration and reformation and above all "Implementation". Again in present age we have least to give as an example but "Secular people" do have...Again sluggishness of Muslims.

8. Some people think it's time to explore, Yes....Those who explored are living better...Mostly explorers are "Liberals" but again religion Islam encourages exploration...Again Muslim's have fault.
10. Lack of education is not due to some religious restrictions.
But those who are free in religion are excelling at a faster pace...

11. Every big global event is a "wake up call" for Muslims not a call "to call upon a siege among themselves"

Take Any thing Liberalism or Religion but act upon it rightly.

And Acting upon anything is the most difficult part for Muslims.
and

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If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?