Who is saying to move tents of Islam? Islam is at it's peak now...Muslims are downtrodden and this condition has reached only due to Muslims not practising Islam in true sense.

Can you comment on the Hadith in Sahih Muslim I shared here in my first post?

Why you haven't implemented Islamic state for 1400 years? And why you want to implement it now?

Your mosques are empty...And even if someone prays he don't know the spirits of prayers.
There is not a single curse present in you...You institutions are decaying...Morally you have reached the lowest level ever achieved.
Out of 2 billion Muslims even there is not a single one who can invent a needle even...
Your cultures,customs and whole civilization is under influence of West...Your youth wears jeans, dance on Enrique Iglesius and feel it proud to have all outlooks of Western civilization.
I don't know what Muslims are expecting that only if Islam is imposed at their heads, and only then the magic will work...
Magic works from within first...
Do you know why the reign of Abu Bakr R.A and Umer R.A was the best one?
Because the followers of Islam at that times were the best. More the period of Prophet PBUH got farther...All the moral filths were adopted by Muslims...With their Harems full of concubines and no art or skill to learn.
When some people arose with logic, they were wiped forever.

Now what you have earned, you are no more capable of ruling the world...You can't even be gathered in your town on the name of religion...How you will be gathered under one Flag of one country?

A secular state is a need of time...Islam has all the flexibility to give us the way to us for this...There is nothing un-Islamic in declaring a state a secular one.

I doubted you could read but now I'm sure you can't. FALSIFIED AND CURSIVE? Do you even know the meaning of the words you use? How is it falsified when it is directly quoted out of the book?
And what solutions are you talking about? Your 'abusmally' downtrodden ethics and social ills. What has they to do with separation of religion from the state? As if social evils are not present in your Islamic states of Saudi Arabia and Iran. Yeah, they may not be present in the present 'Islamic State' because it is itself the biggest evil.

I guess arguing with people like you is like banging one's head in the wall. Why? First, you can't write, it's a struggle to read your words. Second, you don't know how to argue, piling up non-sense over non-sense. Third, what little bit you write is so much non-sense one wonders what part to refute and what not to refute. As there is so much non-sense there is a hard time separating the wheat from chaff- in fact everything is chaff- Fourth, you don't accept the quoted facts and deny them outrightly which is annoying as shit. Fifth, you deviate from the topic. With red herrings and strawmen.

__________________
He that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow (Ecclesiastes 1:18)

What actually you mean to say a secular state ? These are the words from Wikipedia "One manifestation of secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people.[Notes 1]..."
Are you speaking of this secularism or do you have any other definition of your own ? remember "To be free from religious Teachings".
Yes somehow you are right to say that we have never implemented Islamic System since 1400 years or long but it doesn't mean that at last we losing our hope should get alternative. We have empty mosques when we are said to be inhabitants of so called Islamic Country then what do you expect that would our mosques be filled when it gone completely secular ? Our Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) predicted that in the last times (near hereafter ) songs, adultery, corruption, killings, wine, dances etc will be common in people".
Now tell me if we are going to implement a secular system in our country then would these above things eliminated ? actually what in a secular state wine is like a cold drink so it would be no more called a bad thing then definitely bad things will be eliminated ( bad things will be termed good things in fact ). Note the point here 'today if you are going to drink wine publicly you will be at least punished by people for this & if tomorrow (in a secular state) you will drink it then no man will dare to ask you for this" now definitely Secular State becomes peaceful than an Islamic State. God Forbid from such a State where we sleep safe from worldly threats but irrespective of Teachings of Islam. Yes we are still not at the Islamic way but being secular means losing all the access from Islam.
"No Muslim has even invented a needle" If really then where did go those thousands of discoveries & inventions by Muslim Philosophers & Scientists ? Remember that those Muslim Philosophers & Scientist were fundamentalists and followers of Teachings of Islam. Now when we left Islam we lost our hand from science. So tell me what times are glorious in our life those under Islam or later ones ?
and Don't put your point in the name of Ijtihad. Before you know what really Ijtihad means
I am all speaking about secularism defined in Wikipedia. But if you have another definition of Secularism then i may be wrong to say that.

As Since the emergence of Mass Media the world has developed to a global village. Every culture, religion & community came under one sight & a new law came into creation the "international Law" one containing multilateral approaches. So no particular religion was dominant in this system & meanwhile Non-Muslim countries had industrial revolution that their influence draw a mark on this newly created law. Now almost all religions had in a way or other something contradictory to this law. Islam being only religion with almost a complete code of life actually had many things opposite to this law. Now as a fact social transformation is something that flows with time. Muslim countries which already had eve to their religious obedience came under that law and social transformation which got much of its fabric from that law, almost every weakness, like Sectarian divide etc, in Muslims fueled it further. One side it was Islam left with its ideology & other side Secularism. Two types of communities got birth in Muslims one having radical approaches ( mostly upper class people influenced by Diasporas ) & other inclined to traditional Islam.
Things which were lawful in International Law were unlawful in Islam. Indeed somethings were done proudly in Secular System but deserved capital punishment in Islam. Like I already mentioned above. For example, Take Saudi's law in which hands of thieves are cut down but through international law a thief is imprisoned for a time. so if both things are put in comparison then people having radical sense on this will prefer Secular State.
Consider:
In Islam , wine a forbidden thing, adultery a biggest ill, Listening Songs a bad thing, Dance even worse, Woman's earning not allowed etc etc'
& in Secular System "above all things legal". What makes the difference ?
Point is that when we have no law followed then we individually come to punish for above mentioned ills and eventually situation gets worst we call it "Injustice, no Peace" and directly point against Islam & prefer Secularism.
well well well,
I will not hesitate to say that mostly "i like cricket because i play cricket".

@Buddha
oh Mr.ABC I read muqadimmah and your posted quotes that khaldun was evolutionist is falsified.
I would suggest you to read by yourownself and than argue me.(because he was staunch supporter of creation and what absurd you previously posted was contextualized as it(your quote)from muqadimmah is explaining the status of prophet when compared to other living creature so as the angels.for your info it is mentioned on pg#136.first read it and than make a ------
don't use abusive language that itself reflects your abysmality in view of moral ethics//another pitfall
that secularist don't bother nonconformist view.

if you have logical arguments to disprove religiosity at state level.more than welcome to share with us.
if caliphate system is failed than your so called modernism has also waged war...
kindly tell me solution to contemporary world in view of secularism and at least I will probe your arguments rather than accepting as headless chicken.
short temperament doesn't work.and I am requesting you to make sure that don't get panic.

@raorameez
who is saying your argument in view of badr and chartar of madina was correct.
let me tell you
1.madina chartar was signed b/w Muslim and other tribes including Jews.its essence was that
Muslims will not only defend Jews tribes but also resolve their internal conflicts.(civil war b/w oaks and khazrj was resolved by pbuh)
(this chartar was mutually consented-an crystal clear evidence that it was a democracy...(because democracy means selection of leaders by common but also ensuring minorities right to existance and due deliberations to put their effort in society's development and their voice is heard and given the security of their lives.
2.in battle of badr situation was entirely d/f
because Muslims were minority and it was a fight for survival from Islamic point of view
3.Muslim children were educated because they(pbuh) wanted to gave new generation which is educated.(recall surah alak)
please tell me hadith no and whats your opinion about it.because I didn't understand it completely.
again would you like to tell me solution to contemporary problems in view of secularism.
I am reiterating I will surrender if you tell me viable solution to global problems and now challenge its impossible for you to solve the crisis of today's crisis in case if you separate religion from state affairs

ok if half problem is resolved by separation of religious caste .
than tell me one thing how can you resolve the crisis of Global war on terrorism.
2.corporate industrialist who earn profit at infinite rate like imf;two and corporate banks.
as a result of their egalitarian reforms and austerity measures global poverty has increased. at one side we have bill gates whose working capital is even more than Pakistan GDP and on other side we have African states like Kenya;Ethiopia and Zimbabwe where on single day thousand of people die due to starvation.
I would mention a quote of famous agroscientist
saying (people in Africa not die due to non availability of food but due to non purchasing power.

3.family norms are absolutely destroyed(you know very well about extra marital relationships and how obsecence images videos and acts are destroying the minds of people.(are women still safe from rape????)
4.if Muslims are fighting due to sectarianism than who is financing Isis in Iraq???
5.secularism has authority than why it is not ending global war while Americas own media is saying that 9/11 was a false propaganda.
6.just an independent investigation is not made by free masonarist to ascertain the true.
in short these are just some of questions that I have picked up randomly.please explain yours suggestions in view of secularism.

Mr. How can you easily conclude that Islamic State refers to that acting in Iraq/Syria ? most Muslims are against that ISIL of Baghdadi than those advocating about it. means it is easy for you people to choose by yourself that what meaning should be applied upon one's religion. In simple terms ignore whatever Quran & Hadith says (killing one innocent 'person' is murder of whole humanity), ignore that how the Prophet (p.b.u.h) of Islam had behaved with Non-Muslims, ignore the justice system of Islam, ignore every aspect of Islam having equality, Peace, Unity & approbation.
But just note the so called self styled radical sectarian approaches, that they behead people, is what Islam teaches them, they are killing children, is what Islam teaches, they are waging a war against innocent people, is what Islam teaches blah blah, & term these activities the Real foundation of Islamic System. Just tell me if your all ancestors spoke Hindi and you alone choose to speak English then would it be justified if I say that English is your Mother Tongue ? only my fool approaches will take me to say so.

let i put something in this regard, Our Holy Prophet P.B.U.H said ""Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad p.b.u.h) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment." (Abu Dawud).

Will Durant wrote:

‘At the time of the Umayyad caliphate, the people of the covenant, Christians, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Sabians, all enjoyed degree of tolerance that we do not find even today in Christian countries. They were free to practice the rituals of their religion and their churches and temples were preserved. They enjoyed autonomy in that they were subject to the religious laws of the scholars and judges.’.

But what matters for this ? nothing because you people ignore all this because these things are in past and not in present and perhaps you believe that Past has nothing to do with our Present & Future. Islam yesterday was yesterday's Islam & Today it needs another definition....
.

Rest of your debate requires a big essay especially on Ijtehad..But making it simple...

Coming to Pakistan specifically. Leave others

Do you believe in "Democracy"?

If you believe in Democracy then in the presence of Minorities you can't be an Islamic state by identity.Either refute Democracy throughout or accept this fact.

Secondly, Ok leave Ijtihad it is for broader purposes...Can't we practise "Istislah" and propose a structure of state?

And Please come out of this 1000 Muslim scientists and inventions etc.
All Muslim Scientists faced trials from your Ulemas and were declared heretics of their ages. You know the Mu'tazilites and then coming of Ilm-e-Kalam etc banished everything.

We never owned them when they were alive...Then there is no point in owning them now...It's same like you disowned Abus Salam and after 100 years you start lecturing your students that there was a Muslim scientist who was very great etc etc..

Bro...Organize your thoughts first and then write in an organized way...You seem in a lot of hurry...

This is the Ayat...See the commentary of it from any good book of exegesis.

It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. Were it not a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe torment would have touched you for what you took." [Al-Qur'an 8:67-68]

Allah didn't appreciated the treatment of POW and taken the stance of Hazrat Umer R.A.

Global Problem is not our concern yet because we are still stuck in very basic problems in our country. We don't have peace and our masses are not gathering on a single point. Ignorance,Illiteracy and Inferiority/superiority complexes have eaten up our energies.

We need fair democratic governments working for at least 30 years first then we can go ahead. There is no miracle going to happen that some leader will come and next day you will be in your utopia.
This is the first solution of our chaos.

In Islam there are solutions...And It's what I am pointing out as well...
But the way you want it is a failed concept of 1000 years.

B.Bye...

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

If you have read Muqadimmah then instead of screaming that you've read it why don't you copy paste the relevant sections from Muqadimmah that falsify it?

I can't help it if you continue to be so stupid repeatedly.

Did you even read my comment before repeatedly asking me to solve the world's problems?

Religiosity at state level is discriminatory. How? Just google human rights records esp. that of religious freedom of Saudi Arabia, Iran, even Pakistan. How they discriminate on the basis of religion. Compare it with secular states. The USA, the UK, Canada, and countries of Europe. See which ones are better. That's a logical argument. Two propositions. Deduce the conclusion yourself.

Another argument. What do expat Muslims prefer? In Canada, the USA and the UK? A secular system where they would have religious freedom? Or a Christian government? Where they won't have religious freedom?

I asked you this question before but so far you haven't answered this only sticking to asking me to solve the world's problems.


Does that imply we should stick to pursuing caliphate system?


LOL. Ok I am solving world problems.

Terrorism is related to religious extremism. Religious Extremism is there because people following it want to establish a Religious State.

The rest of the problems are the other half. Separating the religion and the state will solve only those problems that are created by keeping the religion and the state together. Read again: Separating the religion and the state will solve only those problems that are created by keeping the religion and the state together. The rest of the problems would be solved differently.



ISIS is financing itself by looting, plundering, donations from supporters, raising ransom money etc. Its financial sources are depleting, that's why it would be losing the war.
False.



It claims to be an Islamic State. It follows Shariah law.


Well that had been a norm with previous Caliphates as well.
What's wrong with taking children? They are taken as slaves. That's permissible.



At the time of Ummayads, their whole economy was based on slave trade, which were taken when foreign lands were looted and plundered, and Jizya. That's why people started converting to Islam to avoid paying Jizya. And when they ran out of enough non-Muslims to collect revenues by Jizya, the state collapsed. Will Durant must be hallucinating.

__________________
He that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow (Ecclesiastes 1:18)

above mentioned ayat mentions enemies not minorities and I don't know in which; pretext you are fixing it.
(if you r mentioning ayat than kindly explain your point of view.

OK we will talk about Pakistan
since 1980s we are the victims of imf vulture.
we are the prey of global war on terrorism
we have sectarian violance at our door step.
we have terrorist attacks that has already engulfed 70000 innocent lives
isn't it or not.......
please tell me how can you detach yourself from terrorist attack in view of liberalism.???
(interestingly America a secularist state is expanding the gwot drawing board with each passing day. and first victim was Afghanistan and Pakistan)
now tell me how can we move ourselves from spider web of imf.????
(it is imf who introduced austerity measures such as subsidy reduction;non accessibility of agro food products in international market and evils of all privatization of national assets such as steel mills and pia and so on-----
existance of NATO weapons in ground nine zero.
CIA financing to mujahdeen particularly to taliban .
strategic partnership to India and willingly complied to raw for their borders on transfer afghan border.
it was America who discussed baloch insurgency as freedom movement in 2012.
All these issue have no originalities from religiosity......
if you are bumptious that religion promotes sectarianism
than it is also apocryphal.
history of sectarianism in pak
in post soviet afghan war cia introduced not only rifle culture but also drug Mafia.( )Taliban were brain washed and some of their factions attacked on shia and as a reaction lashkar I jhangvi sipah I sahaba and many other fanatical groups were formed.

today worlds most notoriously famous drug places are Afghanistan and colombia.(interestingly it is a neighbouring country of America)
these drugs are disposed off in pak.
now tell me one thing if ex president I.e. ha mid karzais brother is a corporate drug exporter than how is it possible for NATO to remain unnoticed. at the same time presidents close relatives were surrounded by natos bastion.
how can you stop the menance of drug consumption from our youth through secularist mode.
while Islam says intake of intoxicating drugs are ha ram.
these are just

Again you require a long Essay.

Again Briefly I say...In my secular mode...I can't even give "Aspirin" without prescription of a Doctor...And you are talking about the other addictive drugs...Do you know in world there are DEAs working...

And come in any village of Pakistan I can show you even any Mullah "Surhking" the "Hooka" and drinking "Alcohol" ad libitum.

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

Oh man where are you taking the argument ? don't you have sense of humor ! my point was that we Muslims have more developed when we were all on Islamic teachings than later times when we took our sights from Islam.
You mean if one of any clergy is going against a scientist then latter gets out of Islam ? by your sense clergy is Islam & Islam is in Clergies only ?...[/QUOTE]


uff, Where are their claims written ? i can't see are these written on sky ? not !.
Intelligent man if Bill Gates claims to be an angel or if he change his name into 'Angel' then would you believe his claim ? or at least would you believe that angels look like him ?
Don't throw please. Biased Views look like yours.



And so is the actual Islam & Islamic System.

Diverging from topic is a disease that deserves more concentration than Polio.




hmmm... And Durant somewhere writes he studies History & Philosophy from a person Who uses his nickname as Buddha.
Perhaps his teacher had hidden some facts from him.