i reckon this post was for me. If i would be fooling anyone then i'll say yes saudia and iran are islamic and they failed so islam failed, but, unfortunately i did not, and that with some weighty arguments, not fooling around, nor expecting others to figure out in dark.

If i say that islam is nowhere found i mean at state level. At personal level it even exist in america, uk etc etc. As islam is a complete code of life so you can not confine it to personal basis. Till the time the economic and political systems of world are not changed or paralleled with an interest free and exploitation free system no one can say that islam is completely found here.

I would have loved to say that saudia or iran is truly islamic if there zakat ratio was 100 percent, if their personal prejudices between arab and non arab had vanished, if they would not have been indulged in shia sunni conflict, if minorities were safe there but unfortunately it is not so. An independent business still needs an authentication of a kafeel there who does nothing but profits from being an arab.

If something is not found it doesn't mean it can not exist especially if it once did. If european countries can form a bank, a currency, a force like nato for themselves why cant muslims develop their own system. because they are indulged in their self interests and are playing in hands of others. rest of them are doing mere taqleed.

The reason of first world's success is their hard work and honesty and the reason for their downfall would be an exclusion of religion from state and personal life.

Its a tragedy in modern world that if you do not pretend to be liberal then you are an outright double faced. A person who is a part of system can call it wrong while still being part of it. its not double faced its helplessness. if it doesn't irk anyone i'll call it the least level of one's faith.

Hmmm well at least as far as my experience is concerned, Muslims always judge faith in others while want total impunity for themselves so I continue to perceive it as double faced haha . I know my levels of faith and I judge others by truth, now if you feel Muslims are truthful and the most honest people in the whole world then I am an infidel

__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

here you are judging ALL muslims while calling them all judgemental, quite confusing.


i dont consider muslims of today , most truthful infact i call them most hypocrite and sufferers of inferiority complex,despite having such a beautiful and complete religion. And yes i am no one to judge anyone as infidel. nor do i like to be judged

__________________
And Allah Knows, while you know not. (Al-Quran)

isn't that right, all Muslims judge each other . The troubling thing is they try to assess faith in others. It's impossible, or atleast very difficult, to know someone's faith unless you know exactly what God wants and what nature he has given to humans. Thus at slight misjudgement Muslims are quick to label other kaafir who will burn in hell forever .

__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

Because in democracy 50.00001 percent votes to one party depicts the decision of All. So, behavior of majority will be considered as behavior of All...
I don't think Muslims are a confused nation because confusion takes place when somebody overly exploits his "brain". and it's mainly because we have got religion (and this state) on silver platter without burning a single calory for it.
We are enjoying the rotten part of fruit (being very old) left over by our forefathers in the form of freedom from aristocratic social setup. We are just overly possessive in recognition of our identities, which now , based on our present scenario, does not belong to us anymore.

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

In simple terms, religious knowledge which is the only thing Muslims had in order to keep faith alive is wanning in modern age as traditional form of organization is outdated

__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

It's also mainly because we inject our most unintelligent brain in that organization or sometimes a crippled one. Bright ones are kept aloof to avoid development of any ascetic characteristic with desire to get a money making machine.
Religion in turn gets more crippled and the bright ones end up in a state of some cardiomyopathy as a result of lost hopes of getting comparatively higher riches.
Essence of both the forms of organizations lies dead.

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

Therefore what happens is people are judged on the basis of personal loyalty and subservience. In my understanding this goes for all Islamic states of today which is why they are the most discriminatory to their own people . Ofcourse it's necessary to judge people, the scale Muslims use to judge has gone very bad .

I hold other reasons for that, basically on a grand scale Muslims held back modernization until it has come to a head. So it seems Muslims are still in a state of shock as to how others, basically Christians and Jews (which are considered lower faiths than Islam) from Islamic point of world view , made that much progress. Perhaps many Muslims still believe it's artificial and won't last long thus they don't behave like taking it seriously, but obviously it seems they feel the need to modernize now. But the thing about Islam is it has the tendency to adopt to whatever time and circumstances it's presented with, so in Islamic societies it seems the whole religion is taking modern discourse.

basically I base my views on assumption that there is no such thing as Islamic state and an Islamic state and nation state are self contradictory. Islam is better when it works like a message from God for the whole of humanity to create a sense of brotherhood, harmony and unity across cultural and national bounds. So basically what is perceived as Islamic state particularly in Pakistan is the period starting from Holy Prophet (SAW) to khulafa e rashidun when early Muslims organized themselves to spread the message of God. And as soon as that message spread across various cultures and civilizations they started absorbing it, thus what you have today is Muslims of various national origins all of whom have adopted Islam differently in their daily lives, for example a Saudi Muslim is different than a Pakistani Muslim even if they are both Wahhabis . But as soon as Muslims created a state out of Islam its power started decaying and disintegrating, monarchies started and cultural and racial rifts start becoming more prominent as well as sects started emerging as a form of internal unrest and revolts as Muslims then started pursuing imperialism rather than spreading the message, because in a state you have a government which has a seat of power, a bureaucracy and a lot of politics and then people are bound to use religious teachings for power and imperial pursuit which is what happened. Thus today a Saudi treats a Pakistani almost like a subhuman . Nevertheless it was natural for people to do that, and even prophet (saw) had envisioned that . In today's post nation state global modern age it would be better for Muslims to actually attempt to understand Islam as a message of submission before a merciful monotheistic God and then apply it in their lives, not as a tool for creating a state and projecting power, because it won't work, other states are much more powerful .

__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

i previously gave example of EU i will repeat it again. If you see they are developing into ummah. a person from a member country can go to any of the member state without visa, they formulate their foreign policy collectively, in practice they are having the nation state and an ideological ummah side by side. so its not that difficult if there is a will to do so. The whole world is now moving from nation states to interest blocs. a nation state can not exist independently, while an ideological bloc can. But for that we will first have to get rid of baseless fighting over sects supremacy.

Islam is not an ascetic religion which feeds on submission only, its the religion of action and man would be asked about his inaction aswell. I agree to you that till we strenghten ourselves we must not meddle with superpowers.But, Muslims would not be able to live peacefully till they do not become a strong political force. So we must work in that direction as well.

I am not a history scholar, but as far as my knowledge the reason of our diminution is our inability to progress in scientific feilds, add to it the lusty luxuries in which the rulers engaged. None of them is linked to islam. infact, intellect, observation, modesty is preached in islam for a common man and a ruler alike. i dont suppport monarchy but i consider every bad thing must not be linked to it by default. Sects emerged in very early period of islam even before the doom of it as a political force. But they were not a problem till they were not exploited, here comes the power intrigues. Sects are exploited under democracy as well for the same power reason, so its a personal wrong conduct of few, which should have and should be shunned by revolting against the exploitation, not the system.

Saudis are wealthy because of their oil wealth, they are economically stronger than us and its in their genes to boast about their arab lineage, how did you relate this inhumane racial attitude of arabs with religion? i am unable to grasp.

__________________
And Allah Knows, while you know not. (Al-Quran)

hmmm well that's a good point. But becoming a polity and establishing a state are two different things. For example it's easier to become a political force, you just need excellent and intelligent rhetoric, some form of a political organization and a brilliant demagogue who can rally people and that’s it, but as soon as it comes to establishing state it creates numerous problems . Muslims at the moment don't have that ability. And more so rest of the world will try it's best not to let that happen because obviously an Islamic state will start spreading Islam just like communist state spread communism and today's west is spreading freedom , and Muslims these days are very dependent .

BTW Muslims will never be able to live peacefully until the whole world is Muslim. You don't see it as I see it and I don't have the ability and knowledge yet to correctly describe how is that the case and maybe you won't understand it either at the moment, so let's leave it there as a disagreement . an Islamic state will not create a same ummah as an EU state. EU doesn't submit before God, it submits before interest and they encourage their citizens to pursue their interests of life and don't worry about divine query in the afterlife or anything, it can go to extreme. Obviously an Islamic state won't do so, it will always try to warn citizens about hell and afterlife , and it can also go to extreme. these are some simple points. Right now it's not time for an Islamic state even if an Islamic state is possible, or we consider Rashidun period as a state amd make it our religious duty to revive that state, or whatever . One thing that affirms my faith in my stance is the mention in Quran which says Allah will give you power if you're righteous but if you are not then it will be taken away. I don't remember that ayat and I don't want to make this religious so.... ., but you can only become righteous if you are aware of what is righteous and to increase awareness you need to increase knowledge by increasing interaction with people and coming into contact with different things and nature without worrying about old morality, discipline and stuff, and start accepting the truth about reality . It appears to me this has already started in many Islamic societies, and the amazing thing is that despite many people crying about immortality, conspiracy and stuff it's not stopping haha

__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.