[QUOTE=jamalnasir;815161]
I like the tune of American NGOs better than that of your mullahs.

The very point of a nation is defeated when you discriminate on the basis of religion. The defense of a nation is the responsibility of its citizens, regardless of their faith.


Ya, I have to agree, Islam is way more refined at oppressing women than other religions. In fact, Islam oppresses women in a way that makes women think its actually helping them.

In Islam women don't have to support their families, but this is NOT a privilege. On the contrary, it is a very subtle tool of oppression. People who have no responsibility can NEVER be equal to those who do have responsibility for the very simple reason that resources (money) can't be equally shared between those who have responsibility and those who don't and without equal sharing of wealth/resources/money there can be no equality.

Even in Western countries, for example the US, women are still not completely equal to men because of the wealth gap. However, a clear relation can be seen between women empowerment since the start of the 20th century and the personal wealth of women.

I repeat, there can be no equality if there is a large wealth gap. This is why even Islam stresses economic equality. By removing all responsibility from women, Islam cleverly makes sure that they can never be equal to men.

As for your other point, with simple math I can prove that half of share from parents plus share from husband does not necessarily equal the share received by a girl's brother.


Learn to read first my friend, and then read my post again. But just this time I'll explain it to you word by word. I said:

All secular states with strong legal systems are peaceful. Law & Order has very little to do with religion.

This was in response to your statement that a pure Islamic state would be peaceful. I said that not only a pure Islamic state, secular states that have a strong legal system are also peaceful because law and order depends on the justice system, not religion. And as for your above example, I'm not sure whether you really are so dumb or you are just acting, because when its said that a country is peaceful, it means that the country is peaceful overall. If you care to see, UK, Spain, China etc are pretty peaceful overall. There has been no country in history in which not even a single crime was ever committed.

Tell me, were there ZERO crimes during the time of Hazrat Muhammad? Were there ZERO crimes during the reign of the first four caliphs? If you say US isn't peaceful because JFK was murdered, what do you say about the Islamic empire in which 3 out of the first 4 caliphs were brutally murdered?


Mere bhai first open Wikipedia and read a little about the US system of government. Stop making a fool of yourself.


Hahahahaha, so a big country means the Islamic way is being followed? Russia is bigger than the USA. Historically, the British Empire, the Roman Empire and the Mongol Empire were all larger than the USA. Does this mean the Romans had adopted the Islamic system lol


Again demonstrating your total lack of knowledge. If you had ever opened a dictionary, you would know that in science, everything is a "Theory". Nothing can ever be proven, except mathematical equations. This is just a convention that scientists use, but retards like Zakir Naik start shouting "its just a theory" and all that crap. Even the heliocentric theory i.e. the theory that the earth revolves around is sun is "just a theory". So is the germ theory, atomic theory etc. The Theory of Evolution has mountains of evidence behind it, but unfortunately, a working brain is required to understand it.

Iran as a secularist mean it has some constitutional reforms of non religious foundations like democracy and freedom of expression which is missing in Arab world.Americas aim is to promote fanatical religiosity in Muslim world(see Webster reply interview as given to BBC news channel)
absolute freedom of speech is dangerous like nazobillah negative and baseless critism on the life of p.b.u.h. as a cartoonist mimicry.
Moral bankruptcy see foundations of western society: profit oriented society goes to extreme level (see interviews of Julian assuange and Edward snowdon) Gmo genetically modified organism(read Michael book seeds of destruction.read how 9/11as false fabrication still misgiving GWot global war on terror as a self righteousness lofty aim that evades poverty and brings equality(George bush words)in reality mini nukes were blatantly used in Afghanistan and Iraq and scientist termed this process as silent Hiroshima (search the topic in dawn newspaper though I have studied thousand of such articles.
now do you think so religion has violated basic rights of human to such an extent that give me proof keeping in alignment that still commuting champs of human right defender and award winning authority of humanitarian assistant and we know very well they are doing in Africa(Rwandan genocide Libyan regime change and darfur crisis and Arab spring in eqypt )list is infinite from my side.
@Jamal nasir
brother I know thousand of facts like these but unfortunately you did I not understand the word religion which I had mentioned in my previous post.
tell me the d/f b/w religion and deen than u will understand how we are following religion but not islam.

brother limited knowledge is also depicted from your side American legal system and administrative policy is at its utter failure????please please please tell me just the answer of these questions
who controls federal reserve of America?????
what is the role of illuminaty in American politics economy and military????
why imf wto and NATO was established in 1940s at that time united nation was established still headquarter of un security council head office in new York but not in Geneva?????
how Israel lobby has gained rigorous momentun in American affairs raging from internal state involvement to foreign affairs?????
foundations of wall street jounal and why it is a monopliziz cartel??who is baking.
who is hijaking media and news and what is their aim.
really really sorry to say that it also reflects your limited knowledge????????????
Tell me why despite of all pitfalls islam is not the fastest growing religion in the world.????????????
nothing is certain in science do agree also reflect that science itself has limited understanding about this world and afterword its just dumb.??????is it or not????
whats your opinion about Einsteins theory of relativity and ashab -i-kahaf in surah kahaf.
what's your opinion about maraj all Bahrain Yale take keyan beynahoma brza khul yabkayan.
two d/f currents transfer cross and than separate without missing up(its mentioned that labror and Atlantic currents transcrosses but never mix up)
as far as zakir nail is concerned tell me any fabricated malacious and derogatory and subjective statement of that guy.problem is that we are just critics and balanced in thought and action.
why we are at utter failure due to absence of justice in thought action and deeds.
Allah says aidaloo how a aqrabu littaqwa. establish adle as it is proximal to taqwa (Piety.)

Oh, you mean that. These still do not make a state secular by any means, but no need to argue about terms and labels.

Muslims have been fanatically religious since before America was even discovered. For rulers especially religion is a good tool to control the population and maintain their own privileged position.

So what? If you are offended at every little thing its your problem, not the society's.

How is a profit oriented society wrong?
(see interviews of Julian assuange and Edward snowdon)

Prove it instead of telling me to read about it.

Again, present proof. I searched for it, but couldn't find any credible source. Maybe you can help me?

BTW, for one moment lets say that everything you said is true, how does it make secularism bad? Did America invade Iraq and Afghanistan because America is secular? America committed a lot of human rights abuses, but so have almost all countries in the world, including Pakistan. How is secularism to blame for the human rights abuses by the USA?

In any case, taking the USA as a model of secularism is like considering a simple B.A pass to be represent Pakistan's higher education system. The USA isn't fully secular because of religion's large role in politics. Sure, its constitution is secular, but religion does play a major role in its politics. Countries like Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries are better examples of an ideal secular country, because they also concentrate on social equality, without which any country will fail.

In my point of view we got Pakistan , not on the basis of Islam becoz my uncle told me that there was no such slogan of Pakistan ka matlab kia LA ILLA ILL LAL LHA during partition and before partition 2ndly i think Pakistan should adopt mix culture as our economy is mixed

those who think that the way i think its not their problem what do u think is right thing for u then go for it and ALLAH the AL-mighty knows very well of US

being a secular state is not mean to hurt other religion or ideology . GOD has given us wisdom to think so think for urself where u find ur comfort go for it

__________________
The more knowledgeable the man the more valuable the man :D

profit oriented society in America just promote the interest of cartels like Gmo consider health hazards of monsato company list of articles and how america destabilize Syria particularly inciting violance and provision of weapons to all nusra
America is secularist (proof its not necessary to take oath on bible while the ceremony of presidential ceremony)America is pluralistic society and tell me the any point from constitution that reflect its religiosity and dear its free masonry about which you have to search.
all my references as mentioned above are eye openers and if I could find a time I will tell you......
9/11 if not fabricarion than why scientific evidences contradicted bush's statement and why gold reserves were transported from that site and according to witnesses it was a fighter plan and posterior side of plane has contained bluish green box (its clue search it and if contradictory than tell me).what is its role and why it is used that give u another clue
2.why radar system of worlds superpower within its own territory was jamed when planes were flying in the air.
3.who was controlling air traffic from source to target.
4.how terrorist reached the plane basement moreover they broke the security nucleus ?????
How
how and how could be it possible.
please tell me the answer of above mentioned post and I will tell you how secularism is deteriorating the peace and holistic progress lies within the court of deen I slam. kindly explain me raised question in previous post of American history related.
3.European countries are puppets.and I will prove.inshallah.

What do you think the average American lives off of? Handouts from aliens? The same profit oriented society you're bashing made the US rich in the first place.

So that makes it secular? Please review your definition of secularism, you seem to be confused. BTW, read my post again, I said the constitution of the US is secular but religion has a major impact upon its politics, case in point being Bush who believed he was on a mission from God when he invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

hahaha bro also tell me about aliens, devil worshipers, the Illuminati etc.

Scientific evidence such as?

Again, provide proof. I admit, I'm not very knowledgeable about 9/11 so prove to me that it was a fabrication.

Explain this please.

That's a senseless argument. By this logic, the attack on every military installation in Pakistan was an inside job.

.
Secularism is destroying peace, sure man. That is why secular countries are peaceful and Muslims are dying like flies. I really like your logi

Prove it.

Why are we even having this debate? It is so unfortunate. Such things should've been clear by now. Look at where the world is going and we are stuck in archaic debates.

A very informative discussion , but I suggest that we dicuss it in an adult manner and not take it personally
societies are so complex that you need to have an eclectic approach to govern the system, whatever works better should be adopted.
surely I would not like theocracy in pak where mullahs rule the roost rather secularism has evidently worked well in todays world.

A country's administration is an utter failure, yet the country continues to dominate the world. Amazing.

No one does. If you think the Jews control it you need to take a closer look at its working.

I'm afraid you'll have to tell me that. I'm not too good with fairy tales.


What do it matter where the Head Office is?

Both countries have extremely close relations and the entire US middle eastern policy is based around Israel. Obviously such close friendship will lead to influence, I'm not sure I get your point.


I'm not concerned with the personal beliefs of any person. It has nothing to do with secularism. We are discussing secularism here, remember.


Anyway, about the growth of Islam, ever heard of increase in population? However, there are more people converting to Islam than to any other religion because Islam is at least better than the other religions which are downright retarded. Better to believe in Islam than in stupid stories about a person who was beheaded by a rival god and then got a new elephant head to replaece the old one as Hindus believe about Ganesh. BTW, compare the number of people becoming Muslims with the number of people leaving religion (not only Islam, religion overall). You'll get a better idea of the situation.


I'd rather go with dumb 21st century science than 7th century myths. But if you are saying this in reference to evolution, I'm ready for a debate on it.

I can't comment on this since I'm not very knowledgeable about this. However, if you can please give me details about it, I would be happy to debate.

So? How does that disprove secularism?

With reference to evolution, the argument that he gave against it was that it is "Just a theory". This argument is senseless, because in science theory means:
"A plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain natural phenomena" (Webster)

So, saying that something is wrong because its "just a theory" is senseless. In science, everything is a theory, no matter how much evidence is found to support it. As I said earlier, even the Heliocentric Theory i.e. the theory that the Earth revolves around the sun is called "theory". Other examples of theories include atomic theory, cell theory, germ theory etc. Tell me, would you say that the Heliocentric theory is wrong because it is "Just a theory"?

For a moment forget about whether you accept evolution or not, I'm just talking about Zakir Naik here. So you do you agree that the argument Zakir Naik used against evolution is senseless?

That means that:
1) He is not knowledgeable about the subject (in which case he should shut his mouth)

OR

2) He is a liar and is deliberately trying to mislead the people.

tell me a single proof from American society that religion has impact on common people and politics????
bush religion is not the one you said its free masonry
(videos of devil deeds in bohemian groove sign of two erected pyramids with free masonry written on American dollar is a clear sign of my argument if you have an American dollar see at its back a hawk carrying an olive branch havingc13 fruits and words on left having 13 swords.and for your kind of info free masonry comprises of 13renowned families.and tell me answer of American history related question.incompetency is evident I am telling you references and you are not responding to mine raised question.should I consider you don't know the answer if yes than its absurd to tell you the real truth.

my counter question is if zakir is fabricating than tell me a concrete evidence that evolution is happening.
obviously DNA exitance contradicts his theory and while in an interview Darwin said I even got confuse when I see a peacock feather at that time he unable to justify it.
you know Einsteins biggest mistake that he accepted as well that evolution has taken place
according to him it was impossible for him to have secular thought that God is non existant and universe is evolved all of suddenly.
about federal reserve its not Jews its free masonry and Zionist this is the reason why john f Kennedy and martin Luther king Jr. was assessinated.and dust was fluxed off under the carpet of conspiracy theories.
administrative failure of America (consider obamas before and after election speeches and rising poverty pro biased media heavenly debted from federal reserve that America cannot take its own stance independently and bush grandfather slogan new world order.(its objective are as dangerous as nucleure bomb for the world but unfortunately only reflect the economical truth.
I think so you would be aware of neorealism and neomashiaveelism.these two terms read in depth and also secularist world link.
enough to indicate that secularism is destruction from every aspect except the one which is stolen from religion.

my counter question is if zakir is fabricating than tell me a concrete evidence that evolution is happening.
obviously DNA exitance contradicts his theory and while in an interview Darwin said I even got confuse when I see a peacock feather at that time he unable to justify it.
you know Einsteins biggest mistake that he accepted as well that evolution has taken place
according to him it was impossible for him to have secular thought that God is non existant and universe is evolved all of suddenly.
about federal reserve its not Jews its free masonry and Zionist this is the reason why john f Kennedy and martin Luther king Jr. was assessinated.and dust was fluxed off under the carpet of conspiracy theories.
administrative failure of America (consider obamas before and after election speeches and rising poverty pro biased media heavenly debted from federal reserve that America cannot take its own stance independently and bush grandfather slogan new world order.(its objective are as dangerous as nucleure bomb for the world but unfortunately only reflect the economical truth.
I think so you would be aware of neorealism and neomashiaveelism.these two terms read in depth and also secularist world link.
enough to indicate that secularism is destruction from every aspect except the one which is stolen from religion.I think so now you will also pinpoint fairy tales from this passage as well.if yess kindly pay attention in the light of scientific evidence.