Secular state - Page 6

Buddha · #51 Monday, April 13, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelblueblue

yes....of cause secularism means detachment of religion from political structure and state foundation.(that includes all religion)"""" i agree
objectivity'rationality'and equality of humans disregarding of ones caste and ones belongingness ;;;; if sole of secularism I respect it.....
first do tell me where the teachings of Islam is contradicting from above mentioned righteous words
Tell me the incidence that is contradicting (from origin of Islamic perspective)
if you are miraged from western secularist ideas than its not my fault(here I would mention that I neither like today's mullah nor satisfy from Muslims performance including my own self but that doesn't mean consider religion as travesty.
its holy prophet (saw)who taught us a lesson to acquire knowledge disregarding of ones belief/you know why kuffar were set free for the sake of provision of education to children not man????
Than charter of madina (signed b/w Muslim and Jews )
holy prophet saw himself had never made a lie.

but what about secularist state.......
Do you know democracy right and freedom to speech is the sole of secularism
than tell me just one thing is America a democratic state?????
it works on two party system(democrat and republic)
just check them out who finance both party ?????
what is the link between rmesis -ll and George w. bush
(rmesis -llwas Egyptian Pharaoh at the time of moses and he himself was atheist and when bush father was mentioning new world order as sole authority to humanity as like his predecessor than what it means
it was rmesis who killed israel man and It is secularism that is destroying the norms of society;;;;;;; promoting infinite freedom at the shoulders of mysogyny and faminism ----i think so everyone is well aware of what had happened at dead sea and how loots nation had suffered from Allah's punitive punishment.
Than tell me just one reason why Allah has discussed prophet moses incidences thousands of time (even surpassing all other prophets incidences???
Do you think existance of 9/11incidence is an accident ????
its well planned even before thousands of years ago.
than question arisis why I am against secular state...
I have my own reasons ------------
for example(GMO)
genetically modified organism
its largest company is monsato in america.extensive research has been made that though yield is high but such food items are highly carcinogenic causes many diseases like cripple generation and dumb and dull minds due to interfarence in hormones and neurotransmitters.
interestingly these corporate elites have god and that is money..... (don't believe on my words search from internet)
now come to Global war on terrorism when 9/11is a foul sneaking nose than is America willing to justify its exixtance in Muslim countries...
critical question
1who is financing all nusra in Syria
2.why America (secular state)though I respect and value the common citizens such as Christians ------discluding them and including its official authority is pro aggressive whenever the voice is raised against organized terrorist such as Israel....
it is even a bastion to bring the Palestinian rights to represent its case in INTErnational court of justice???
Due to time constraints I will have to finish it.
but any way I would suggest you to think critically (which itself has been hijacked by media and its propaganda)
and at last I would correct my mistake
I n my previous posts I had mentioned an ayat and it was from surah kaaaf not hadeed .
if you have healthy critism /than you can find me at appreciative sight and when it comes to lies and illogical acceptance I am willing to fortify it .
because teachings of islam say this.

You're deviating from the topic clearly. And I have a hard time following what you write and trying to say.
So what do you suggest? The state shouldn't be secular? Ok. What should it be then? Islamic State? IS? They are implementing 7th century principles verbatim in Iraq/Syria and see the demonstration of an Islamic State!

RAO RAMEEZ · #52 Monday, April 13, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelblueblue

its holy prophet (saw)who taught us a lesson to acquire knowledge disregarding of ones belief/you know why kuffar were set free for the sake of provision of education to children not man????
Than charter of madina (signed b/w Muslim and Jews )
holy prophet saw himself had never made a lie.

Not addressed to me but still I'll say...As per my very little knowledge...This kind act of teaching children was not much appreciated by Allah...Abu Bakr R.A given this idea and Umer R.A opined against it saying that the prisoners must be killed.
Allah sided Umer R.A in this case.

And what people say

Jews were killed as per that law for mutiny...And this thing precedented the next upcoming centuries and Islamic Shariah Law...Finally you ended up killing 140 children and raped thousands of Bengali women.

It's not my personal opinion...It's just what people are murmuring here and there...I can answer these allegations but I leave it here...

nelblueblue · #53 Monday, April 13, 2015

@Buddha
I am not deviating from topic basically secularism is a false propaganda and at state level it is just demolition and I have prove it.This is the reason why it is predicted that in 2050 America and Europe both will have majority of muslims.by the way Americans are more liberal and educated than ours and its not the statements of mine but of Americas own statistical records.
@rao rameez
would you like to explain me the role of jurisprudence:figh and (ijtehad)
this is the answer to your question
another example holy prophet(saw)has imputated a woman's hand in embezzlement
and
in the reign of hazrat Omar (r.a)such a severe drought and famine prevailed that he banned the imputation of hand in case of stealth.
who is saying Islam has banned democracy (I my own self has read that Ibn I nafees and Ibn I khaldun was writing that democracy is the soul of Islam
and even Ib n I khaldun has modeled reign of Islam as a perfect paradigm for upcommers(I read in dawn newspaper in Friday columns in 2013)these are just a few
another fact majority of Muslim converters are scientist.
it is Islam which says that every person has right to live
for example
holy quran says
murder of a person is the massacred of whole humanity.
here Allah says person not Muslim.
Let me tell you one thing origin of secularism is directly related to hedonism so as to Darwinism.
it is a complex chain that is linked to one another.
I had mentioned that Islam is not a religion but a deen(a complete code of life)
democracy (in its true form)objectivity rationality adle and accountability are the assets of Islam.

I am challenging all of you to bring the solution of contemporary problems within just word and one deed(today we are victims of mass killings: corruption; nepotism social problems;discontentment and uncertainty of future.
Call your secularist mode put his utmost effort to solve this monkey theorem.?
after all its a question of who is viable and up to what extent?
let's see who is going to win??????

Buddha · #54 Monday, April 13, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelblueblue

@Buddha
I am not deviating from topic basically secularism is a false propaganda and at state level it is just demolition and I have prove it.This is the reason why it is predicted that in 2050 America and Europe both will have majority of muslims.by the way Americans are more liberal and educated than ours and its not the statements of mine but of Americas own statistical records.
@rao rameez
would you like to explain me the role of jurisprudence:figh and (ijtehad)
this is the answer to your question
another example holy prophet(saw)has imputated a woman's hand in embezzlement
and
in the reign of hazrat Omar (r.a)such a severe drought and famine prevailed that he banned the imputation of hand in case of stealth.
who is saying Islam has banned democracy (I my own self has read that Ibn I nafees and Ibn I khaldun was writing that democracy is the soul of Islam
and even Ib n I khaldun has modeled reign of Islam as a perfect paradigm for upcommers(I read in dawn newspaper in Friday columns in 2013)these are just a few
another fact majority of Muslim converters are scientist.
it is Islam which says that every person has right to live
for example
holy quran says
murder of a person is the massacred of whole humanity.
here Allah says person not Muslim.
Let me tell you one thing origin of secularism is directly related to hedonism so as to Darwinism.
it is a complex chain that is linked to one another.
I had mentioned that Islam is not a religion but a deen(a complete code of life)
democracy (in its true form)objectivity rationality adle and accountability are the assets of Islam.

I am challenging all of you to bring the solution of contemporary problems within just word and one deed(today we are victims of mass killings: corruption; nepotism social problems;discontentment and uncertainty of future.
Call your secularist mode put his utmost effort to solve this monkey theorem.?
after all its a question of who is viable and up to what extent?
let's see who is going to win??????

Where have you proven it? I don't see any proof of it.

By the way Ibn-e-Khaldun also believed in evolution. It is unrelated but since you've mentioned Evolution and Ibn-e-Khaldun both, so I thought you might like this fact.

nelblueblue · #55 Monday, April 13, 2015

@Buddha
I am not deviating from topic basically secularism is a false propaganda and at state level it is just demolition and I have prove it.This is the reason why it is predicted that in 2050 America and Europe both will have majority of muslims.by the way Americans are more liberal and educated than ours and its not the statements of mine but of Americas own statistical records.
@rao rameez
would you like to explain me the role of jurisprudence:figh and (ijtehad)
this is the answer to your question
another example holy prophet(saw)has imputated a woman's hand in embezzlement
and
in the reign of hazrat Omar (r.a)such a severe drought and famine prevailed that he banned the imputation of hand in case of stealth(an example of jurisprudence).
who is saying Islam has banned democracy (I my own self has read that Ibn I nafees and Ibn I khaldun was writing that democracy is the soul of Islam
and even Ib n I khaldun has modeled reign of Islam as a perfect paradigm for upcommers for democracy and wikipedia says he was secularist --read( Islam and secularism) and()these are just a few examples which I remember?????
another fact majority of Muslim converters are scientist.
it is Islam which says that every person has right to live
for example
holy quran says
murder of a person is the massacred of whole humanity.
here Allah says person not Muslim.
Let me tell you one thing origin of secularism is directly related to hedonism so as to Darwinism.
it is a complex chain that is linked to one another.
I had mentioned that Islam is not a religion but a deen(a complete code of life)
democracy (in its true form)objectivity rationality adle and accountability are the assets of Islam.

I am challenging all of you to bring the solution of contemporary problems within just word and one deed(today we are victims of mass killings: corruption; nepotism social problems;discontentment and uncertainty of future.
Call your secularist mode put his utmost effort to solve this monkey theorem of infinite problems with one remedy.
after all its a question of who is viable and up to what extent?

let's see who is going to have a n edge ?

ha ha ha
Ibn I khaldun was believer of social evolution.
he was social scientist not biologist and theory of evolution was proposed in 1900s not in khaldun duration and that was asabiyya(force of convergence )
here it is deviation from topic
kindly tell me solution to worlds problem in secularist mode.
it is the point where you need to focus who is viable and competent to contemporary problems.
kindly make a thorough research before asking a question.don't post ludiculously......ufffffffc

Buddha · #56 Monday, April 13, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelblueblue

ha ha ha
Ibn I khaldun was believer of social evolution.
he was social scientist not biologist and theory of evolution was proposed in 1900s not in khaldun duration and that was asabiyya(force of convergence )
here it is deviation from topic
kindly tell me solution to worlds problem in secularist mode.
it is the point where you need to focus who is viable and competent to contemporary problems.
kindly make a thorough research before asking a question.don't post ludiculously......ufffffffc

I hope you know how to read. This is what Ibn-e-Khaldun wrote in his most celebrated work Muqadimmah:

One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word "connection" with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the next group.

The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.

As far as solving problems of the world is concerned, if all the nations start looking after men and women without asking their caste, creed, race and RELIGION, it will solve half the world's problems.

A secular state in Middle East which doesn't see if any one is Shia, Sunni, Yazeedi, Wahabi, Christian or Jew. Wouldn't it be a solution? Nobody will ask your religion or sect and treat you differently. Wouldn't it solve the problems of Middle East which is gripped in civil war between different sects who want to establish states with power and grants to their own sects and religions.

And I would simply ask you? Would you prefer a Christian Republic of America? United Kingdom of Christians? Jewish Republic of Canada? Every Muslim wants every country they are immigrating, to be secular. Because the state won't distinguish between them and members of other religions. What would you prefer?

iamauk · #57 Tuesday, April 14, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaista88

I think a state should be a secular state rather than Islamic state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hassan02

\

All secular states with strong legal systems are peaceful. Law & Order has very little to do with religion.

I wonder how our educated people directly come to support secular states and system against Islamic State (Islamic way of governance that Our Initial Caliphs implemented but not that so called "ISIL of Baghdadi). Islamic system seems to them one outdated system to be implemented in this age. Remember "Islam is permanent revolution' History is evidence to the fact that the most peaceful times where the only times when there was Islamic System of governance. Actually in today's world the only thing that hampers all the systems of Islamic world are the sectarian differences. Before there was any sect in Islam there was no chance for injustice at all. The meaning of Islamic system has changed in us due to secular Media & non-Muslim approaches to this. Islamic system and Islamic State is that when "Hazrat Umar e Farooq" says "if a dog dies due to thirst in my domain, I will be asked to justify it before Allah" From this line we can get very explicit meaning that what extent Islam puts on to justify indeed for an animel. Now it would be merely self opacity to term Islamic system outdated. Actually we are already living in a Quasi-Islamic but a secular state. We in our life have never undergone through any Islamic governance that we at once come with such a baseless criticism about Islamic State. Tell me what makes our system to be called a pure Islamic State ? we have secular leaders (fact is fact) our leaders choose to live abroad but to rule here, tell then from what dimension our leadership resembles with Real Islamic Leadership. I am not advocating theocracy because that too has enough to be called unIslamic in our country. Our clergy is also a major cause of spoiling the real meaning of Islam. So what justifies it for us to say that Islamic State couldn't provide us peace without getting it implemented ? ( terming without testing ). yes we can say that Islamic State can't ( but not couldn't ) provide us Justice if we can present it from History with any of aspect as a failed system ( which is an impossible thing ). For the question of Pakistan actually we have one of the only critical history regarding Social, Political, Cultural and Particularly Religious changes. Once upon a time we had a neighbor whom we hated because they had different culture, later we hated them due to their different religion, later for their having different political ground and now due to their being from a different sect. Means in a way or other we have always something to be justified for our keeping hatred in our midst unfortunately.Over all it is merely a misconception particularly one created by modern Media by just presenting the night scenario. we must get A true Islamic system Implemented before we make foolish views against it.

nelblueblue · #58 Tuesday, April 14, 2015

kindly download this book and read page#136 to ownward
its a contextualized statement infact khaldun compared d/f forms and their statuses much like creation of earth in 7 days. from d/f stages.
and I am shocked how Wikipedia contains such cursive and falsified statements.

Tell me solution to problems that our world is facing keeping in view not only sectarianism but also organized crime such as abusmally downtrodden state of ethics and social ills.
under the banner of secularism.
if you give me satisfactory solution ..am ready to surrender

RAO RAMEEZ · #59 Tuesday, April 14, 2015

I didn't understand Ijtehad and all that...and on other side you are saying Secularism is hedonism etc...If Ijtehad can be practised then why not according to modern needs we can declare State being secular?
When we have enough room in our religion for this, state should be secular...It's not against religion...For "Public Good", you can do this...After that you can have all your values borrowed from religion, leaving few things like Minority as second class citizens etc...

You had written about Battle of Badr and Treaty of Madina...I corrected your version of history just.

Religion can't be an adhesive force now...Throughout the history of Muslims you can see a continuous battle between Modharites and Himyarites...With every new century there erupted new factions and Nations with their own versions of Islam. African Muslims, Spanish , Turkish , Persian ,Indians etc etc...Ummayyads,Safvids,Fatmids,Ismailis,Alawids falana dhimkana...And now even sub-continent Muslims are divided into three very different nations...

Now which version of Islam will you apply on state?

Secular state is not something a "Shaitani Charkha"...People have found it's origins from very religion...Believe me...Islam allows you to have a secular state...These are "Wordly Affairs" as I have quoted the hadith...

By the way you are quite intelligent.
Caliph Abdul Malik was reciting Quran when the news of his succession reached him. He shut down the Quran and said "This is my last time with thee; we shall never meet again". He is said to be the most successful Caliph after Muawiya among all the Ummayad Caliphs...

iamauk · #60 Tuesday, April 14, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAO RAMEEZ

..If Ijtehad can be practised then why not according to modern needs we can declare State being secular...

So you mean Ijtihad refers to change and a change that can go moving all tents of Islam itself ! in other words for you there is no difference between Ijtihad and that "Christianity's Reformation, trinity etc". You mean Islam gives us loopholes to change it or ignore it on the political grounds ?
Before we come to comment about Islamic State tell us when had we implemented it and when it gone wrong ?.

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