Such an interesting discussion you guys have had here. I just came here to put my opinion but after going through the comments, I felt no need of it, because enough had been discussed from various angles.

I find this move of the government as intelligent as suspending cellular services on every important religious/national holiday. When the state machinery fails to provide security, it accepts its incompetency in the form of such stupid decisions. And, instead of seeing that, we begin to praise such decisions--not realizing that our rights are being slowly encroached upon. If preaching has been restricted for now, who knows what else will be in the pipeline. "Grand things have small beginnings", let's see what future holds for other sects that are 'rejoicing' over this decision! Reminds me of Iqbal,

"Mullah ko jo hai Hind mein sajday ki ijaazat...
Naadaan ye samajhta hai ke Islam hai aazaad..."

As for the things being said about a particular sect being related to violence, I would like to say that our people love violence IRRESPECTIVE of their sect (and I am not a follower of the 'targeted sect' of this post). One sect loves violence in the name of "Namoos-e-Risalat", other loves it in the form of "Jihad" or Nifaaz-e-Shariat. Violence is violence, whatever label it bears. And our people love it (you just got to witness once the mobs ready to kill and vandalize whole villages just because someone uttered 'blasphemy' to believe this)!

__________________
"Everything the light touches, is our kingdom."

you have nailed it bro. Nicely summed up. How can, for instance, you abhor the whole republican party or Abraham Lincoln, for the stupid gestures of Donald Trump, and how can the entire Buddhist community be banned from entering a Muslims states for the excesses a specific group committed in Burma, this is beyond my imagination.
European states are fighting tooth and nail to avoid ethnicism, racism or sectarianism as they have suffered alot due to the prevalence of these issues before the renaissance and 1950s era. We however deliberately inciting these issues by the projection of our prejudice.
my so called secular brothers, and those who opposing tableegh must have to learn that they should not criticize a group if it's views and response have not been taken, otherwise their view may be prejudiced and illogical.
Also i request the champions of secularism to study in depth the structure of IMF, world bank, Un, international political order, the impact of evolution theory on western ideology - they would come to know how much the western secularism is benign and what are the causes of rise of militancy in Muslim states.

__________________
winners never quit, and quitters never win.

Religion is a private matter,it has been publicly induced in our lives.if government is doing something to curtail its public influence,it doesnt make us bereft of our rights.Everybody still possesses a right to choose his relugion on the part of govt.Those are the molvies who enslave people in different sects claiming superiority over others.This is where your tight of choice is being checked.
And don't you think in our societies our right of free speech is being encroached upon in the name religion.One faces severe consequences if he tries to speak against exploitation in the name of religion.Even our constitution has greatly been influenced and misused in the name of religion. You must ponder how hudood ordinance,blasphamous laws,shariat enforcement acts,objective resolution etc have curtailed human liberties in our country.
Finaly,those are not the common people who love or support violence,a particular mindset does. This mindset is present in all sects,though in small numbet.Supporters of mumtaz qadri are not common people like me and you,but those who donot like our freedom.
So,separation of religion from public and state matters is the only way out.this will happen oneday.

__________________
"Believe you can and you're halfway there"

Lolz for another pseudo-secular scholar. Like seriously there is something wrong with Hudood ordinance that comes straight forwardly from Allah. And if objective resolution is an excursion, then tell me please what were the basis for Muslim's nationalism in the sub-continent.
one question more if Pakistanis are fundamentalists and Europe enlightened, then what is the rationale behind the proscription of criticising holocaust?
i don't repudiate that all is well in Pakistan; i just of the view that secularism is the outcome of European's efforts to combat the evils of their own society, and it is not logically applicable to Muslim states. Muslims have their own ideals and the religion therein is not a matter of private life.

__________________
winners never quit, and quitters never win.

1. You follow Hudood Laws as you wish, nobody is stopping you but you cannot force anything on others.
2. Pakistan was supposed to be much more secular democratic and liberal than India, that is why Objectives Resolution was a deviation. Your first law minister was a Hindu (Jogendra Nath Mandal) approved by Jinnah. Jinnah made it clear in 11-Aug speech that the nature of state will be secular. Was Jinnah a Molvi type person? I don't think so. Besides, Jinnah agreed with Cabinet Mission Plan (Autonomy inside the Indian Union), Congress did not and that is where partition was chosen by Jinnah.
3. Holocaust was a very bad event in the history of mankind. If a similar thing happened to Muslims in a European country, wouldn't you be hurt if some people denied it or supported it? Healthy criticism and discussion on Holocaust is not forbidden in Europe.
4. You are right that secularism is the outcome of European's efforts to combat the evils of their own society, those evils were the religious extremism and rule of clergy that we are facing today. The only difference is that they learnt it 500 years ago and we are going through it now.

[QUOTE=kingfalcon;909995]1. You follow Hudood Laws as you wish, nobody is stopping you but you cannot force anything on others. anyone who enters the folding of Islam must have to accept it, if not, you have the option to adopt another religion. Following two ideologies leads you nowhere.

2. Pakistan was supposed to be much more secular democratic and liberal than India, that is why Objectives Resolution was a deviation. Your first law minister was a Hindu (Jogendra Nath Mandal) approved by Jinnah. Jinnah made it clear in 11-Aug speech that the nature of state will be secular. Was Jinnah a Molvi type person? I don't think so. Besides, Jinnah agreed with Cabinet Mission Plan (Autonomy inside the Indian Union), Congress did not and that is where partition was chosen by Jinnah

. jinnah essentially was not a molvi but he led a deeply conservative society a highly stratified one that can only be united around Islamic ideology. Believe me there would have been four more states in south Asia had the Islamic ideology been scrapped out

3. Holocaust was a very bad event in the history of mankind. If a similar thing happened to Muslims in a European country, wouldn't you be hurt if some people denied it or supported it? Healthy criticism and discussion on Holocaust is not forbidden in Europe.

yeah holocaust is as painful to westerners as the sanctity of prophet to Muslims. If Europe is so enlightened then why they hurt again and again the Muslims' sentiments


4. You are right that secularism is the outcome of European's efforts to combat the evils of their own society, those evils were the religious extremism and rule of clergy that we are facing today. The only difference is that they learnt it 500 years ago and we are going through it now


you should also at the external affairs of secular states please. Has their ideology stopped them from human rights violation, exploitation of global south, state interventions and above all racism and leftist bigotry?

__________________
winners never quit, and quitters never win.

Respected member, i had already told that Atlantis states are not purely secular and liberal.
Have a look on my quote
http://www.cssforum.com.pk/general/d...tml#post909665
I have many other reasons to believe on this.
Regarding evolutionary theory is a false notion,could you explain me who has told you that it is a political theory and is a founding mother of pseudoscience?
Say scientist and particularly those one who are neutral and impartial one.
Buddy,thats the true defination of a seculars.Otherwise,we religious people tilt the notion that counter questioning is a big sin.My school teachers rebuked me to ask the question that how it is possible for nooh to assail the animals and human kind within a single boat?
Atleast my secular thoughts will not prohibit anyone to ask even the foolish questions.
(please, dont mix my secular notion to that of contemporary west.
already explained that europe is not enligtened,and jewish holocaust was preplanned mentality of these super rich allies.
See this.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Qt6a-vaNM

Why i had mentioned Martin Luther king jr ,Abraham Lincoln and John mikenly,you have needed to know about them.
For your information,capitalism is politicoreligious ideology not secular in origin. (Do you know Obama is muslim?)
would you like to explicate speak freely but deliberately?
Americanism,liberalism and europenism. First think about jinnah, who was secular and liberal,than we proceed further...
I am leftist and whatever redeems fit for us ,we follow it, and i found Abraham and mickenly policies much better than Shah walli ullah, sir syed Ahmad khan, Molana ali johar and Gandhi or any other person of eastern origin.Zara in k ideology to prho aur phir pan nationalistic ideology ko compare kro.
I hope you know very well why muslims lost the battle of ohd,as muslims didnt comply with aetheist leader ;Eventually,Khalid bin waleed toppled the muslims. Later on, if im not wrong holy prophet(pbuh) has made the compulsion for every muslims to follow the leader under any circumstances.

P.s.Those who are asking for imf and WB revision must have needed to know that those supra allies and world supera rich communities are neither secular nor they are liberals.Their doctrine is conservative and their notion is fanatics.
Kindly read Modern money mechanics.Hope it will fix the problem.
Kindly, pay some attention on GREEN BACK of Abraham lincolns ideology and Henary wallace revolutionary reforms in great depression of 1930's and 40's.
Tick it!!!!

Every nation become advance and develop whenever they have adapted Liberalism and Secularism, but unfortunately in Pakistan, People consider secularism as a wrong idea. Contrarily, what we see here in Pakistan is a government that infuses religion in every sphere of its running, notwithstanding the guidance provided by Muhammad Ali Jinnah, who envisaged Pakistan as a modern state.
Our leaders have circumvented Jinnah’s vision of a modern state ever since his demise and put no efforts of their own to crafting a secular strategy for Pakistan, And then, the final blow came from General Zia ul Haq, who set the nation on an unending path of fundamentalism by strengthening religious parties, establishing Sharia Courts and introducing the concept of jihad amongst the youth.We need crucial reforms to instil the element of secularism into our society. we are ready to declare Pakistan a secular state

__________________
Success is simple. Do what's right, the right way, at the right time.

Dear!Muslims lost some extra lives but didn't lose the war of Uhad at all.

Sent from my R8106

__________________
A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits!