The Myth of Islamic Caliphate - Page 6

Subhan Ahmad · #51 Sunday, July 20, 2014

Caliphate can not be said as myth. It is very much possible but needs a high level of maturity and unity among people. And also requires a high degree of education islamic and scientific. We can easily say that we are way backwards than our pious ancestors. But what we really need is to at least start following the road. Islamic political system implemented with sincerity and honesty will suffice in present. In future, it possible that once we are on that road and our minds mature, we may evolve into muslims that can implement caliphate system.

Zmaray Khan · #52 Sunday, July 20, 2014

The maturity can revive it. The conditions of Caliphate are many including but not limiting to : Centers of knowledge, the upper hand of Muslims, the technological advancement, the rule of Truth. The love of Muslims and humanity, unity of all with pleasure. Caliphate is a myth until the conditions are met!

waqas izhar · #53 Sunday, July 20, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gypsified

There's another difference. That is, you are constantly ignoring a simple question that I asked and the issue at hand. So instead of irrelevant debates (the arguments of which are faulty to the core form your side), I'll only repeat it: does Islam prescribe a political system? Does Islam prescribe a way to elect the legislature and executive? Or does Islam only give general ethical guidelines about it?

No it does not prescribe a political system. It does not prescribe a way to elect legi or exe.

But it has given the law. The law is zakat. It has already done the legislation.

Gypsified · #54 Sunday, July 20, 2014

Quote:

No it does not prescribe a political system. It does not prescribe a way to elect legi or exe.

Thank you. I rest my case.

Buddha · #55 Monday, July 21, 2014

Your problem is that you're giving shallow counter cases and counter examples. For example, mining on the moon. These things are good for jokes. But repeatedly hammering with shallow cases can be annoying. Since you're awaiting my reply so eagerly I'll try to give you answers.

Quote:

because banks are owned by capitalists. zero interest kills their profit. their motive is profit not welfare. and if they are doing any welfare it is with taxes and by giving loans to other nations.

If zero interest kills their profits then what's the incentive for a financial firm to give you loan? You already said their incentive is profit. See: You haven't answered what will be incentives to give loans when there is no interest rate and money is depreciating.
Your answer: profits

That's argument for the sake of argument. Shallow reasoning. Reason I was going to avoid this thread.

Quote:

1. have you heard of the Phillips curve? it is a negative relation between unemployment and inflation. i.e increase inflation and reduce unemployment. now these are the two ills you want to cure right? so what are you going to choose? in the long run (sorry unemployment comes back to its original level at a higher inflation! the solution is to reduce the long run unemployment level. how? by supply side economics: build schools and institutions, infrastructure etc. how are you going to do that? by investment? where will that investment come from? foreign loans or domestic loans? or are we going to wait for foreign countries to take pity on us?

That Phillips curve! Unemployment gonna decrease as inflation goes up only for the short run while your whole argument is based on the LONG RUN. Why even bother stating it when it doesn't even help your argument? Trying to be technical?

That whole development thing of supply side economics can be done without making the interest rate zero. Building school and infrastructure is not dependent on making interest rate zero. Making it zero will cause hyper-inflation. The money you think will be liquidated to be invested is going to be inflated and not of much use!!!

Inflation is not good, that's why policy makers try so much hard to keep it low.

Quote:

2. Inflation is something you will have to live with. today the policy rate was announced at 10 % (or was it yesterday?). why? because inflation has been constant at 8.6%. now tell me why do we have inflation presently? is it right to have it or not? is it affecting the poor? the hell with the poor. aren't resources scarce? let them die. economics does not care as it is a positive science right? or does it care?

That's called rambling. Economics is a positive science and policy makers will use it to make humane decisions one of which is changing interest rates to control inflation so that poor won't die because of high inflation. We know because economics tells us that.

Quote:

3. were there banks in the beginning? no. was the world working? yes. why do we have banking system now? changing needs you might say. efficiency of paper money you would say. was there inflation before banks were introduced? if yes give an example. if no then does it not mean that banks are a cause of inflation?

The world was working without factories, huge population, modern communication and transportation system. World was working even when we were in caves. What kind of shallow reasoning I'm dealing with

As regards as the other question, let me quote Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations
"The discovery of the abundant mines of America reduced, in the 16th century, the value of gold and silver in Europe to about a third of what it had been before"

Prices in Spain rose by 400 percent in 1500s and 1600s which was called Price Revolution. Banks are the only cause of inflation????

I think I have dealt enough with shallow reasoning.

Aaqib Javed · #56 Monday, July 21, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by waqas izhar

this book says no riba i.e interest. i just tried to analyze an economy with zero interest rate. you see in essence zero interest rate means: no banks. in my analysis i say that if we need to have a permanent solution we need to give it time i.e. at least a fifty years. but you guys probably want results tomorrow and that is impossible even with western economics.

I know many people who do not deposit their savings in banks because they don't want to deal with anything related to interest. What happens is the currency, which is intended to stay in the economic flow, gets stuck in the private safes. When banks have lesser deposits, they have lesser cash to lend to investors. If there are more people who want to borrow money than there is cash available, then the interest rate will rise. The increased interest rate will discourage investment and unemployment etc will continue. In addition, when people don't deposit their savings to banks they have more cash available to themselves. And the amount of cash people have at home is directly proportional to their spending of cash. Although saving your money in a bank or spending it in the market can serve the same purpose i.e. both increase aggregate demand (saving by lowering interest rate and encouraging investment, which increases aggregate demand; and spending by directly increasing aggregate demand). But spending actually is against the essence of fundamental economic problem of scarcity. So 'savings' actually is the most of the economists' preferred way of economic growth. But we have seen that Muslims aversion to Interest leads to spending and not savings and even worse scenario is in which they don't spend their 'home savings' because savings that are not part of the economic flow will lead to economic stagnation.

There does exist an alternative culture of giving Qarz-e-Hasna to your friends and relatives. But this culture is very inefficient because it is not institutional. I will make it clear with some points. Banks usually demand feasibility report of a project and other details before granting a loan and they ensure legally that the loan will be returned in given time. But since common people don't understand these procedures in detail they will be hesitant to give loan and even if they lend some money there won't be much guarantee that the project will be a success and loan will be returned. So many of these barriers make informal borrowing and lending very inefficient.

Now I want people to deposit their savings in banks so that the deposited cash can be used to grant loans to borrowers after institutional scrutiny. Non Muslim countries use interest as an incentive to encourage people to save their money in banks but in Muslim countries especially in Pakistan the interest discourages people from making deposits.

This problem can be solved by offering such % of nominal interest rate that makes real interest rate 0%. In developing countries inflation rate is bound to stay above 5% and that is what banks mostly pay in the name of interest. Ulema and scholars can issue fatwas regarding the allowance of charging for inflation. This Islamicly allowed interest will serve as an incentive to encourage people to deposit their savings in banks.

For that we will need a reliable institution to issue inflation rate for a certain time period. Banks could only charge inflation rate + service charges from the borrowers and they will pay back the depositors the Inflation rate. So banks won't be keeping any of the interest; they will only be charging borrowers for the effort and cost of maintaining the accounts. And depositors and borrowers won't be paying any interest either.

Isn't everyone better off in the above scenario in an Islamic country. I am not sure of dynamics of my proposal so any criticism is welcome.

You guys can also see my this facebook post which discusses the same issue.**********

waqas izhar · #57 Monday, July 21, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaqib Javed

scarcity

Dearest of Brothers
1. is there no such thing as an islamic economic system?
2. isn't riba explicitly forbidden in Islam?
3. if no to 1 does 2 stands cancelled?
4. can't savings can be taxed with zakat?
5. what kind of an Islam is Islam which has neither a political system nor an economic system? how can the Quran claim that it is the solution to the problems of humanity? what does Islam stand for? what is the purpose of Islam?
6. What kind of god Allah is who has sent his vicegerent to earth and doomed him to scarcity? He speaks of peace and yet forces human beings to go to war over scarce resources?
7. was the economy of the world not functioning before the advent of banks? what do you think was the ancient silk route?
8. was there inflation before the advent of banks? if no, then aren't banks a the cause of inflation?
9. have you heard about the classical dichotomy?
10 what do you know about the expectations augmented Phillips curve?

regards

Aaqib Javed · #58 Monday, July 21, 2014

Quote:

Dearest of Brothers
1. is there no such thing as an islamic economic system?

Let me make it clear first what it really means to have an economic or political system prescribed by your faith. It means the "ashraful maklukat" has chained itself. It means he has closed all the doors of reason upon itself. He is now nothing more than a slave. He will have to follow that "system" at the cost of his 'capacity for reason' and at the cost of his liberty. All of the above would have been fine some seven or eight centuries ago. When everything, that goes around in our world, was supernatural phenomena. When it rained not because the monsoon wind carried a load of moisture across a region but because some really 'pious' man has prayed for rain to happen. When Sun was not eclipsed by moon but by the wrath of Some 'Allah wala'.

Now Human beings have conquered those fears. They have controlled their environment. Science and the scientific method has given a degree of certainty to what we know. The beauty of Science lies in the fact that nothing is permanent in it. It has capacity to learn from its mistakes. If science has embraced something wrong and you can prove it fallacy with evidence and with reproduce-able experiments, it will love to correct itself; it will welcome the new findings. But an "Islamic/Christian/Buddhist Economic or Political System" won't allow us that luxury. We will have to follow the God's "command" at the cost of any improvements that can be made. Will the modern mind be contend with that blind following?

And it isn't really just a matter of choice between the systems, that we can put our finger on it, push a button, now Islamic mode is on, now western mode is on. No man, million of lives hang on those system. One wrong click, one wrong push and millions can die of hunger, hundreds of thousands can loose their jobs, thousands can loose their education. We cannot operate on the whims of some ideologue.

Now you yourself are an Economics, which is a science, student. If you think, on the basis of evidence, that 0% interest rate is better for an economy, then you should present your findings in form of a thesis. It will be viewed and reviewed by your peer economists without any bias or prejudice. No prejudice because a scientist is a truth-seeker who is trained to find the truth. If your proposals are true and worthy then rest assured that truth will prevail sooner or later.

Here is my answer to your first question. "I am sorry to disappoint you brother but there exists no such thing as an Islamic Economic System. And I am glad that Islam hadn't given us one because if it had, its details would have been determined 1400 years ago and today we would have to follow those details without benefiting from what humanity have learned in the years in between. Who would have enforced that system? No angels would have descended from heavens to enforce it. It would have been us humans, who wouldn't have cared that poor has bread to eat or not as long as their own kids have cake to eat and as long as an "Islamic system" is in place. Man's dogma would have justified all the atrocities.

Quran is there to make us better human beings, who respect truth. And if we are good human beings then the system we are part of will automatically become Islamic.

Quote:

2. isn't riba explicitly forbidden in Islam?

It is forbidden in Quran. But may be we need to understand Quranic orders in perspective of those times. Back then, there were no financial institutions. Individuals who loaned money demanded interest that was mostly equal or more than the original sum. And this higher rate of interest is understandable. All Abrahamic religions forbade riba. And interest rate was higher because there were very few individuals who were willing to lend money against the teachings of their religions. The supply was short so the price was higher. Similar phenomenon happens with the trades of illegal drugs and other contrabands.

As is mentioned in this Quranic ayah "O you who believe! Eat not Riba (usury) doubled and multiplied, but fear Allah that you may be successful."
Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #130

Why Quran mentions this phrase doubled and multiplied?
This phrase is referring to those very high rates of interest which were arbitrarily demanded. Quran have refrained us taking interest is all well and good, It has asked us to give Qarz e hasna, which is a very desirable and appreciable practice. I wouldn't ask anybody to charge interest from others but there really are some psychological and situational limitations, some of which I have mentioned in my earlier post, to this informal practice of Borrowing and lending.
Now we have financial institutions and a very efficient system of currency. Rates of interest aren't depended on individual needs. rather it is the score of factors that determine modern interest rate. And I doubt if it ever exceeds 20%.

So I am not the only one but many scholars have maintained that with advent of modern banking the negative aspects of interest have vanished so Quranic ayahs may not apply to the banks.

Quote:

3. if no to 1 does 2 stands cancelled?

you have my answer above.

Quote:

4. can't savings can be taxed with zakat?

Of course they can be taxed. In fact, I think it's best if govt collects zakaw and then spends it to make systematic improvements for welfare of poor and needy.

Quote:

5. what kind of an Islam is Islam which has neither a political system nor an economic system? how can the Quran claim that it is the solution to the problems of humanity? what does Islam stand for? what is the purpose of Islam?

Answer is there in your first question.

Quote:

6. What kind of god Allah is who has sent his vicegerent to earth and doomed him to scarcity? He speaks of peace and yet forces human beings to go to war over scarce resources?

May be you want to reconsider this question. Allah has sent us here for Azmaish not to build some 'Islamic empire'.

Quote:

7. was the economy of the world not functioning before the advent of banks? what do you think was the ancient silk route?

Believe me world was a lot more miserable place back then. Hunger, disease, war and lawlessness was more widespread than they are today.

Quote:

8. was there inflation before the advent of banks? if no, then aren't banks a the cause of inflation?

Buddha has answered your this question above.

Quote:

9. have you heard about the classical dichotomy?

I have just read about on wikipedia. Not sure if i got it completely.

Quote:

10 what do you know about the expectations augmented Phillips curve?

I don't know any thing about it.

Regards

waqas izhar · #59 Monday, July 21, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddha

Your problem is that you're giving shallow counter cases and counter examples. For example, mining on the moon. These things are good for jokes. But repeatedly hammering with shallow cases can be annoying. Since you're awaiting my reply so eagerly I'll try to give you answers.

ahem go through the following article please:

the first line of which say:"Five years ago, if you had brought up moon mining among geologists, “you would have been laughed out of the room"...

http://metronews.ca/news/world/97482...ury-gold-rush/

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/9/539...-moon-catalyst

http://www.mining.com/nasa-begins-ac...he-moon-52869/

and the following (these idiots are going to mars)

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/m...192011042.html

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic....bal-attention/

and the following

http://www.universetoday.com/108939/...y-from-a-star/

If zero interest kills their profits then what's the incentive for a financial firm to give you loan? You already said their incentive is profit. See: You haven't answered what will be incentives to give loans when there is no interest rate and money is depreciating.
Your answer: profits

profit on a profit/loss sharing business. this will increase investment loans and reduce consumption loans. but sorry you don't want to hear about it, it is after all shallow reasoning like mining the moon.

That's argument for the sake of argument. Shallow reasoning. Reason I was going to avoid this thread.

That Phillips curve! Unemployment gonna decrease as inflation goes up only for the short run while your whole argument is based on the LONG RUN. Why even bother stating it when it doesn't even help your argument? Trying to be technical?

o bhai jan there is a long run Phillips curve and you claimed to be a positive economist that is why i brought it up

That whole development thing of supply side economics can be done without making the interest rate zero. Building school and infrastructure is not dependent on making interest rate zero. Making it zero will cause hyper-inflation. The money you think will be liquidated to be invested is going to be inflated and not of much use!!!

but zero interest rate will accelerate the process. banks need to be restructured for such a venture

Inflation is not good, that's why policy makers try so much hard to keep it low.

that is a normative statement, not a positive one

That's called rambling. Economics is a positive science and policy makers will use it to make humane decisions one of which is changing interest rates to control inflation so that poor won't die because of high inflation. We know because economics tells us that.

again a normative statement. economists themselves do not agree on the definition of economics. nor do they agree over whether it is positive or normative. but you definitely know better.

The world was working without factories, huge population, modern communication and transportation system. World was working even when we were in caves. What kind of shallow reasoning I'm dealing with

As regards as the other question, let me quote Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations
"The discovery of the abundant mines of America reduced, in the 16th century, the value of gold and silver in Europe to about a third of what it had been before"

because the supply of gold increased. you increase supply of a thing and you lower its value

Prices in Spain rose by 400 percent in 1500s and 1600s which was called Price Revolution. Banks are the only cause of inflation????

here is another piece of shallow reasoning. if the spanish knew about the Zakat system they would have distributed their wealth and no on would have been worse off . did they not know that inflation is bad for the poor

I think I have dealt enough with shallow reasoning.

thank you your highness

your basic assumptions are:
1. scarcity, which i accepted because you threatened to leave
2. positive economics, on which you yourself aren't sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaqib Javed

Let me make it clear first what it really means to have an economic or political system prescribed by your faith. It means the "ashraful maklukat" has chained itself. It means he has closed all the doors of reason upon itself. He is now nothing more than a slave. He will have to follow that "system" at the cost of his 'capacity for reason' and at the cost of his liberty. All of the above would have been fine some seven or eight centuries ago. When everything, that goes around in our world, was supernatural phenomena. When it rained not because the monsoon wind carried a load of moisture across a region but because some really 'pious' man has prayed for rain to happen. When Sun was not eclipsed by moon but by the wrath of Some 'Allah wala'.

1. did the Quran call it supernatural phenomena or did ignorant human beings call it supernatural phenomena?
2. here you are saying that man should not chain himself or become a slave at the cost of his capacity to reason right?
Now Human beings have conquered those fears. They have controlled their environment. Science and the scientific method has given a degree of certainty to what we know. The beauty of Science lies in the fact that nothing is permanent in it. It has capacity to learn from its mistakes. If science has embraced something wrong and you can prove it fallacy with evidence and with reproduce-able experiments, it will love to correct itself; it will welcome the new findings. But an "Islamic/Christian/Buddhist Economic or Political System" won't allow us that luxury. We will have to follow the God's "command" at the cost of any improvements that can be made. Will the modern mind be contend with that blind following?

an Islamic political system does not exist, we agreed on that yesterday, but why would an Islamic Economic System stop you from scientific research? your words: "won't allow us that luxury", are you assuming it or do you know for sure?
And it isn't really just a matter of choice between the systems, that we can put our finger on it, push a button, now Islamic mode is on, now western mode is on. No man, million of lives hang on those system. One wrong click, one wrong push and millions can die of hunger, hundreds of thousands can loose their jobs, thousands can loose their education. We cannot operate on the whims of some ideologue.
are people not dying of hunger in the western based economic system?
Now you yourself are an Economics, which is a science, student. If you think, on the basis of evidence, that 0% interest rate is better for an economy, then you should present your findings in form of a thesis. It will be viewed and reviewed by your peer economists without any bias or prejudice. No prejudice because a scientist is a truth-seeker who is trained to find the truth. If your proposals are true and worthy then rest assured that truth will prevail sooner or later.

i tried but no one seems to go beyond inflation

Here is my answer to your first question. "I am sorry to disappoint you brother but there exists no such thing as an Islamic Economic System. And I am glad that Islam hadn't given us one because if it had, its details would have been determined 1400 years ago and today we would have to follow those details without benefiting from what humanity have learned in the years in between. Who would have enforced that system? No angels would have descended from heavens to enforce it. It would have been us humans, who wouldn't have cared that poor has bread to eat or not as long as their own kids have cake to eat and as long as an "Islamic system" is in place. Man's dogma would have justified all the atrocities.

you have won my heart.tell it to these guys as well, they are wasting their precious time.
http://www.iiu.edu.pk/index.php?page_id=62

http://www.cie.com.pk/objectives.asp

and tell Wikipedia too that they have been made nitwits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic..._jurisprudence

Quran is there to make us better human beings, who respect truth. And if we are good human beings then the system we are part of will automatically become Islamic.

It is forbidden in Quran. But may be we need to understand Quranic orders in perspective of those times. Back then, there were no financial institutions. Individuals who loaned money demanded interest that was mostly equal or more than the original sum. And this higher rate of interest is understandable. All Abrahamic religions forbade riba. And interest rate was higher because there were very few individuals who were willing to lend money against the teachings of their religions. The supply was short so the price was higher. Similar phenomenon happens with the trades of illegal drugs and other contrabands.

forgive me but go tell that to these idiots who have been wasting their time for fifty years:
http://realislamicbanking.com/200806...stgrievous.htm
As is mentioned in this Quranic ayah "O you who believe! Eat not Riba (usury) doubled and multiplied, but fear Allah that you may be successful."
Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #130

Why Quran mentions this phrase doubled and multiplied?
This phrase is referring to those very high rates of interest which were arbitrarily demanded. Quran have refrained us taking interest is all well and good, It has asked us to give Qarz e hasna, which is a very desirable and appreciable practice. I wouldn't ask anybody to charge interest from others but there really are some psychological and situational limitations, some of which I have mentioned in my earlier post, to this informal practice of Borrowing and lending.
Now we have financial institutions and a very efficient system of currency. Rates of interest aren't depended on individual needs. rather it is the score of factors that determine modern interest rate. And I doubt if it ever exceeds 20%.

astaghfirullah

So I am not the only one but many scholars have maintained that with advent of modern banking the negative aspects of interest have vanished so Quranic ayahs may not apply to the banks.

who are those scholars?

you have my answer above.

Of course they can be taxed. In fact, I think it's best if govt collects zakaw and then spends it to make systematic improvements for welfare of poor and needy.

why should the government collect zakat? just call it tax. there is no difference between both or is it?

Answer is there in your first question.

May be you want to reconsider this question. Allah has sent us here for Azmaish not to build some 'Islamic empire'.
o mere bhai ooper aap luxury enjoy karna chahtay ho, yahan per aap ko aazmaish ki par gai hai. aik baat karo na please. agar azmaish hai tou phir Allah ke batay huay asoolo per chalo na bhai...

Believe me world was a lot more miserable place back then. Hunger, disease, war and lawlessness was more widespread than they are today.

very good, so food has increased with time and so has health services. don't you then think that your fears about scarcity are unfounded?

Buddha has answered your this question above.

very good he has. but then has it been proves that in presence of banks there has been no inflation?

I have just read about on wikipedia. Not sure if i got it completely.
it means that in the long run nominal variables and real variables are the same. whether you increase or decrease the supply of money, does not matter.

I don't know any thing about it.
this one proposes that inflation is actually a psychological phenomena and not a scientific one as economists have believed in the past

Regards

it is said that if you laid all economists from end to end they won't reach a conclusion. keynes has called it an apparatus of the mind. economics does not even agree on its definitions. calling it a positive science has lead to many financial crisis in the past.

oh and do tell me if my reasoning is shallow, if it is i should do some other job.
regards

Aaqib Javed · #60 Tuesday, July 22, 2014

Wajahat Masood sahib's latest column in Daily Jang argues along similar lines as is done in my last post in this thread.

Daily Jang link

http://e.jang.com.pk/07-22-2014/Laho...name=08_05.gif

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