I'm not sure how reform can come from within the system, because as long as a system benefits those who are part of it, why change? So reform can't come from within the ranks of the CSP and as inept as our politicians are, it would be insanity to expect any reform from their side.

let me explain the term civil disobedience.....u must have heard the word "government servant".. sarkari nokar jese kehte hain.. the accurate word for them is "civil servant"... govt is a pillar of state..hakumat jese kehte hain..jo change hoti rehti hai democratic states may.....so civil disobedience in countries like pakistan is far different from government disobedience...matlab state se nafarmani na k govt se..in other words, it is "baghawat".... however, the term is used is western world with a slight difference.. the reason is that there is no difference between state policies and govt policies in western countries.. but in pakistan, it is not like that..state policies are different from govt policies.. so if u start civil disobedience in western countries, it doesnt matter....but in pakistan it matters.....now i am asking IK whr is ur march BHAI ...at WASHINGTON OR AT ISLAMABAD..

I think the politicians are not inept, they know better how this culture works and how to control it . It seems this nation lacks direction actually, it's stuck between old and modern world, or more conveniently islam and western world

By the way I didn't mean just 'politicians' by elites. Elites would be all those who hold any influence

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

Sheikh rasheed denied the allegation.....he said even he did n't know about the ImRan's civil disobedience call

But take a look at the current federal cabinet, how can you expect these guys to control CSPs?

True. Which is why I say the state should have nothing to do with religion and everyone should practice whatever religion he wants in his home.

But the other elites also stand to benefit from maintaining the status quo

BTW, your signature is true. I've become somewhat disillusioned with democracy over the past couple years..

They are 'controlling' them but they can't 'direct' them to anything, because these politicians often end up in enforcing 'personal rule' and other power seekers start challenging that. It's typical of a group that is confused about direction I suppose


In historic Islamic order this was done after 'subordinating other religious beliefs' and it worked (at least back then) so well that the tradition is still strong. Strong tradition don't die down that easy I think, so it often create conflict with modern secular traditions . An entire re-understanding would be required perhaps. And even mere re-understanding won't work, it would require harsh struggle to re-organize entire social political and economic order that has evolved in 1400 years (less in case of Pakistan, perhaps 1000 years ). Without actually understanding and struggling for the purpose it would just make us slaves of modern secularist powers . Remember Islam by far is the only 'old' religion which was not only able to create a state but establish a 'faith based empire' for its cause, and that cause is still there maybe in merky form but still...

Status quo can't be maintained if environment becomes tough for survival I think. If the elites start consuming too much at the expense of other segments then change in status quo is inevitable, that's how nature works .

To me democracy fails to check on excesses of the elite, then why should it be preferred . The only thing it promises is freedom, but can we be free and enjoy freedom 'forever'. Perhaps we aren't even 'created' for that, we enjoy only for a while and return to same 'shackles' again, or rather start wishing for shackles again

BTW I don't mind confessing that even traditional Islamic order eventually failed to keep check on excesses of the elite, and perhaps it's taking a whip for that

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

Agreed.

I'd say this is at least a 1 generation (30-40 years) process. But before any actual work can be done, there must be the WILL to do it. The ruling class must realize that the state must have nothing to do with religion. I'd say this would be half the battle won.


True. Observe how the country is just stable enough and just enough work gets done to avoid anarchy. It seems the ruling class is aware of your theory

There is no doubt that democracy does bring freedom (although freedom itself is subjective), but some people assume wrongly that dictatorship is the ONLY alternative to democracy. Another wrong assumption in democracy is that the man who is most loved is also the most capable; this is totally baseless! Leave Pakistan, our entire democratic system is rotten ; can any American say with full confidence that in the entire United States of America, there is no man more capable than Obama?

People have started taking actions to show civil disobedience. A friend of my friend refused to pay the tax of Rs 424 in a restaurant and expressed this on the bill receipt. The image is now circulating at fb am0ng my friends.

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An anchorperson asks a person in PTI's protest; "what would happen, if Nawaz resigns?". He answers; "IK would become PM". The anchor asks; "then?". He answers, blushing; "then what?". He asks another person, and again the same answer with a difference that the second tells about one of his complaints for electricity which he registers online, and in the evening the respective head reaches him and solves his problem in KPK. After declaring civil obedience, questions were asked from the participants, but none knew, what it really was, and how to act accordingly!. What they do know is that their leaders are standing there and whatever they say, regardless of its authenticity and applicability, they will act upon.
After seeing this, I only say that we all are personality worshipers, in politics. Whatever, the leader say, we act upon, putting aside the concerns to the country. Truly, flock of sheep, driven by a shepherd, to wherever he likes!.

I don't think ruling elites benefitting from status quo will ever realize that, such changes usually come from unseen corner at times when enough pressure has been built I think


Well nature places in every organism traits that are fit for survival, which is why earlier I was keen to avoid using the terms inept and foolish for the politicians even though it appears they are idiots . You can take the case of zardari for example, he has proven to be a political genius even though it looked like he is a corrupt loon . It could also be that our thinking them as inept and foolish gives them strength


I think assuming capabilities from loved ones has a reason, you usually love someone for something. For example you love someone for their sexy body . But it then comes down to expectations. For example you expect a sexy body to lift a ton of weight for you . So a person who is able to rally masses behind him sure has a capability that even a genius scientist doesn't have, but you can't expect a scientific work from that person. So generally I would describe it as Pakistanis build nonsensical expectations and get disappointed soon . Perhaps it's because a vertically collectivist society is ruled by a horizontally collectivist political system, but I am not sure if that's the exact description, I am trying to understand reasons behind this phenomenon actually .

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.