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  #41  
Old Tuesday, February 28, 2012
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If a person wants to see pencil in the glass of water the pencil cannot be broken as been seen by the person. Same thing happened to mhmmdkashif .The question is who determines and executes economic policy politicians or economists? Political instability causes economic downfall. Prudent political policymaking strengthens economic functioning in smooth order.
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  #42  
Old Tuesday, February 28, 2012
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Originally Posted by sanguine hope View Post
If a person wants to see pencil in the glass of water the pencil cannot be broken as been seen by the person. Same thing happened to mhmmdkashif .The question is who determines and executes economic policy politicians or economists? Political instability causes economic downfall. Prudent political policymaking strengthens economic functioning in smooth order.
Look Dear, you are having a very narrow view of things that a few macro level economic policies will solve everything and therefore we should wait for the politicians and policy makers to decide fate of the nation, I am referring to basic socioeconomic problems which are causing our economy to not work, hence fueling the political instability and social disorder. Solving those problems is the job of whole society, not a bunch of policy makers. Do you get it now . Pakistan has 55.7 million labor force, 43% is concerned with agriculture, 20.3% with industries and 36.6% with services. Now just look at how agriculture sector works, a landlord owns lands and people are just serving there with virtually no chance of progressing in life fairly until they themselves become landlords. How they become landlords themselves, ofcourse by getting money from somewhere, and there are fair as well as unfair means to get money but in our society it is unfair means that work and bring easy money. And now most of work force has become adept at acquiring easy money , hence the whole system is not working and chaos and disorder is rampant, you may name it political instability or whatever. Same is the problem with labor force working in services sector. For example a Bus driver, a Plumber, an Electrician, most of them work on resources owned by someone else and get no chance of fair progress unless they own their own business. With so much discontented workforce, how do you think any policy by the policy makers will even work. Try to look at problems from all perspectives and you will get an understanding, a nation works when everyone works, not just politicians and policy makers . You maybe working in a Bank or some big organizations and therefore not understanding why I am trying to say workers have no chance of fair progress, but just remember a huge majority of Pakistani workforce is out there on its own with no setup to bring them up, and therefore they seek any means to progress and ultimately get misguided and get strayed from their basic task . Hamara culture hee job kaa aadi nahin hai, utam kheti neech nokri type misalen is kaa saboot hain , ham sab kisi na kisi business ke maalik banna chahte hain .
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  #43  
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The problem with Pakistani economy is it does not have a modern organic structure. Educated management (or middle, like us here on forum ) class has a very limited role restricted to organized corporations (for example banks, firms, corporations, cellular companies etc) but most of the economy (for example agriculture, many other kinds of private businesses, even transportation and supply chain to a large extent) works on a Feudal "hasil karo aur chalao" lines where owners (who own a resource through buying or investing) directly interact with workers and management has no legal role and authority to play. This type of economic setup causes not only bad management of resources but also repression of workers who do not find anyway to progress and become hopeless; thus they try to resort to either unfair means, look for messiahs, join politics or become religious zealots etc. Ironically same Feudal who caused repression in first place now changes face as a politician and starts talking sweetly, getting poor people loans and charity etc and try to become their messiah. They even cover up illegal activities of "the poor and oppressed" to gain their political support. The state is then compelled to serve Feudal interests since they now also have political upper hand besides just economical. Political clash of interests then causes not only political instability in the country but also violence and disorder, because Feudal has their own dictatorial mindset and is in control of people both economically and politically. And educated middle class has to suffer the consequences of sin they never did and wait for political stability to come before they can work. If Pakistan is to improve, educated management (middle) class has to insert itself legally in all the economic spheres and take away some rights from owners (or upper class of investors) either by force or through struggle. This will give fair chances of progress to workers (who can progress by making it up to management class through education and skill improvement) and hamper authoritarian control of resources and the state by Feudal. The sheep in Pakistani society is actually educated middle class who is not ready to fight for their rights and insert itself in the broad society. Do you see any politician working in that direction, tell me honestly . Only a new economic setup will shape a new society and a new society will shape new politics where no buffoon will be able to gather millions and disrupt social life for no solid reason. When a solid economic setup gives fair chances of progress to everyone and has its roots all across the country, it will serve to bring people closer and remove ethnic sentiments as well. India is not progressing because of continuity of political system alone, its progressing because it also inherited a better economic setup than ours and its middle class is gradually inserting itself into the society very successfully in virtually the same local political conditions as ours.


That my friends was all I was trying to prove in this thread . Pakistan needs an organic economic setup all over the land and things will improve only then . But sadly, we are not even budging towards such reforms . Over and out .
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Pakistan's problem is that Chor-uchakay become Rulers, they make policies which safeguard their monopoly over Industry and the big chunk of national wealth gets eaten by these Predators, who are the stakeholders with multinationals operating in Republic. Any Political system can yield results, even that of Adam-Khor-kabayal of mysterious lands of Africa, Provided its Run with Sincerity and keeping Welfare of the People in Mind!

Economy is always directly depended on Political Conditions, the example of Afghanistan is there to be learnt lessons from. In Pakistan the Political Mafias have their own economic interests to look after, thats why they don't do any effort, neither do they allow others to take any steps in order to make Pakistan a truly Welfare State.
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aik misal haazir-e-khidmat hai . hamare mulk main kitne agriculture graduates hain jo berozgar phir rahe hain aur nokrian na hone kaa rona rote rehte hain aur siasat karte phirte hain yaa phir pesticide companies join kar lete hain jo ke bunyadi tor pe chemical companies hoti hain, magar hamari agriculture abhi tak purane tariqon se manage ho rahi hai. is se bari sitam zarifi aur kia ho sakti hai ke koi aik graduate bhi entrepreneur ban ke apne illaqe main field management kee company qaim nahin karta. agar koi aik company aisi ban jaaye jo ke corporate usulun pe qaim ho to woh landlords se contract haasil kar sakti hai aur local labor hire kar ke zaminen sambhal sakti hai aur jadid tariqe istimal kar ke production bhi barha sakti hai. is se aur logun ko rozgar bhi mile gaa aur economy kaa aik sector jo apni marzi aap ke tahat laissez-faire usulun pe chal raha hai woh bhi thora usulun pe chale gaa aur agriculture income pe state ko jo tax nahin milta woh bhi aana shru ho jaaye gaa. local logun ko bhi shoq hoga ke woh taalim haasil kar ke company main aage barhen. aik company kee kamyabi se dusri companies banen gee aur gradually aik ache culture kee bunyad bhi pare gee . middle class ko siasi tabdili kaa intezar karne ke bajaye apne aap ko mobilize kar ke society main in karna pare gaa, warna to koi nahin laata tabdili .
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Originally Posted by mhmmdkashif View Post
The problem with Pakistani economy is it does not have a modern organic structure. Educated management (or middle, like us here on forum ) class has a very limited role restricted to organized corporations (for example banks, firms, corporations, cellular companies etc) but most of the economy (for example agriculture, many other kinds of private businesses, even transportation and supply chain to a large extent) works on a Feudal "hasil karo aur chalao" lines where owners (who own a resource through buying or investing) directly interact with workers and management has no legal role and authority to play. This type of economic setup causes not only bad management of resources but also repression of workers who do not find anyway to progress and become hopeless; thus they try to resort to either unfair means, look for messiahs, join politics or become religious zealots etc. Ironically same Feudal who caused repression in first place now changes face as a politician and starts talking sweetly, getting poor people loans and charity etc and try to become their messiah. They even cover up illegal activities of "the poor and oppressed" to gain their political support. The state is then compelled to serve Feudal interests since they now also have political upper hand besides just economical. Political clash of interests then causes not only political instability in the country but also violence and disorder, because Feudal has their own dictatorial mindset and is in control of people both economically and politically. And educated middle class has to suffer the consequences of sin they never did and wait for political stability to come before they can work. If Pakistan is to improve, educated management (middle) class has to insert itself legally in all the economic spheres and take away some rights from owners (or upper class of investors) either by force or through struggle. This will give fair chances of progress to workers (who can progress by making it up to management class through education and skill improvement) and hamper authoritarian control of resources and the state by Feudal. The sheep in Pakistani society is actually educated middle class who is not ready to fight for their rights and insert itself in the broad society. Do you see any politician working in that direction, tell me honestly . Only a new economic setup will shape a new society and a new society will shape new politics where no buffoon will be able to gather millions and disrupt social life for no solid reason. When a solid economic setup gives fair chances of progress to everyone and has its roots all across the country, it will serve to bring people closer and remove ethnic sentiments as well. India is not progressing because of continuity of political system alone, its progressing because it also inherited a better economic setup than ours and its middle class is gradually inserting itself into the society very successfully in virtually the same local political conditions as ours.


That my friends was all I was trying to prove in this thread . Pakistan needs an organic economic setup all over the land and things will improve only then . But sadly, we are not even budging towards such reforms . Over and out .
How can middle class assert itself broader in the society or how can we break the monopoly of elite in a free economy?
And do you term newly born private electronic media of PAK as an assertion of middle class?
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How can middle class assert itself broader in the society or how can we break the monopoly of elite in a free economy?
And do you term newly born private electronic media of PAK as an assertion of middle class?
take a deep look at Pakistani society and you will notice one thing, yahan pe larne ke liye saste fighters buhut mil jaayen ge laikin organizations ko workers nahin milte aur na hee kaam karne waalun kee qadar hoti hai . try to think about the reasons and you will find out many things , hamari soch hee aisi hai ke wasail ke maalik ban kar ke paisa banayen, khud apni mehnat aur skill se kisi position pe puhunch ke nahin . laa qanuniat is liye hai ke Feudal brute force use karte hain aur middle class legal taqat use karti hai, magar middle class kaa influence society pe kam hone kee waja se yeh situation hai . hamari middle class ke andar bhi feudal soch janam le chuki hai. har insan kee koshish hoti hai ke woh samaji aur muashi tor pe apna status barhaye. shru ke waqt main government ko human resource kee zarurat thi to logun ko aage barhne kaa aik raasta nazar aata tha ke degree leke sarkari nokri kar lo, magar muashi tor pe aage barhne ke chances economy phir bhi nahin deti thi. jin logun ne phir government service join kee unhoon ne rishwat lena shru kar di aur apni zaminen banani shru keen, phir Feudals ne un ke sar pe bhi haath rakhna shru kia, is tarah se Feudals kee grip na sirif economy aur society balke state pe bhi mazboot hoti gayi aur muashre main naa insafi ko farogh milta gaya. ab situation aisi ho gayi hai ke government jobs aik to itni ziada nahin jo sab ko adjust karen aur jo hain un pe maara maari buhut ho gayi hai, aur jo educated tabqa yahan pe wajood main aaya us main bhi Feudal soch janam le chuki hai. Media aik ray of hope hai, magar khuda kare yeh bhi haath se nikal na jaaye aur in ko ihsas ho ke middle class ko Feudal banne se bachaye aur us ko society aur economic setup main insert karwa sake. meri nazar main paisa kamana har insan kee khuwahish hai laikin wasail pe qabza karke maalik ban ke maal banana Feudal soch hai , is liye economy ko aik aisa setup banana chahiye ke wasail kisi ke qabze main na hon aur behtar manage hon aur un se banne waala paisa sahi tor pe society main kaam aaye .

I am just telling my personal views dear, so don't take anything seriously .
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aik misal haazir-e-khidmat hai . hamare mulk main kitne agriculture graduates hain jo berozgar phir rahe hain aur nokrian na hone kaa rona rote rehte hain aur siasat karte phirte hain yaa phir pesticide companies join kar lete hain jo ke bunyadi tor pe chemical companies hoti hain, magar hamari agriculture abhi tak purane tariqon se manage ho rahi hai. is se bari sitam zarifi aur kia ho sakti hai ke koi aik graduate bhi entrepreneur ban ke apne illaqe main field management kee company qaim nahin karta. agar koi aik company aisi ban jaaye jo ke corporate usulun pe qaim ho to woh landlords se contract haasil kar sakti hai aur local labor hire kar ke zaminen sambhal sakti hai aur jadid tariqe istimal kar ke production bhi barha sakti hai. is se aur logun ko rozgar bhi mile gaa aur economy kaa aik sector jo apni marzi aap ke tahat laissez-faire usulun pe chal raha hai woh bhi thora usulun pe chale gaa aur agriculture income pe state ko jo tax nahin milta woh bhi aana shru ho jaaye gaa. local logun ko bhi shoq hoga ke woh taalim haasil kar ke company main aage barhen. aik company kee kamyabi se dusri companies banen gee aur gradually aik ache culture kee bunyad bhi pare gee . middle class ko siasi tabdili kaa intezar karne ke bajaye apne aap ko mobilize kar ke society main in karna pare gaa, warna to koi nahin laata tabdili .
yahan par wohee purana masla khara ho jaey ga jo waderay, jageerdar aur istashalee tabqa jo pehlay moonchey aur darhee rakhtey they aur apney interests k liye assemblion ma directly ya indirectly pohanch gaey they.ab wohee tabqa pent coat pehan kar aur moonchey dari katwa kar corporation bana la ga aur hum parhey likhay masoom phir reh jain gey aur sath hee sath corporations kee monopoly ya oligopoly qaim ho jaey gee aur jo faida is waqt hum free market forces sa utha rahey hain qeematon k taiyun k mamley ma us sa bhi hath dhoo bethain gey aur sath hee sath chohtey kashtkar bhi baree corporations k hathoon blackmail hon gey..
jahan tak sawal hai public companies ka to us silsalay ma adam smith k corporations k barey ma hadshaat PAK jesi country ma 100 feesad durust sabit hon gey kiu k as we know waderay etc to hain hee istashali...

(ma ap k idea sa bilkul mutafiq hon.infact yehee idea meray zehan ma bhi tha par sawal karnay ka maqsad sirf ye hai k jo bhi drawbacks hon ap k proposal ma un par bhi behas ho jaey ta k hamarey zehno ma jo ap na idea diya hai us k baray ma ziada sa ziada clarity a sakey.isi waja sa ma jan jan kar bhi tanqeed kar raha hon ta k is idea ko mazeed refine kiya ja sakey..hope you dont mind.hehe)
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yahan par wohee purana masla khara ho jaey ga jo waderay, jageerdar aur istashalee tabqa jo pehlay moonchey aur darhee rakhtey they aur apney interests k liye assemblion ma directly ya indirectly pohanch gaey they.ab wohee tabqa pent coat pehan kar aur moonchey dari katwa kar corporation bana la ga aur hum parhey likhay masoom phir reh jain gey aur sath hee sath corporations kee monopoly ya oligopoly qaim ho jaey gee aur jo faida is waqt hum free market forces sa utha rahey hain qeematon k taiyun k mamley ma us sa bhi hath dhoo bethain gey aur sath hee sath chohtey kashtkar bhi baree corporations k hathoon blackmail hon gey..
jahan tak sawal hai public companies ka to us silsalay ma adam smith k corporations k barey ma hadshaat PAK jesi country ma 100 feesad durust sabit hon gey kiu k as we know waderay etc to hain hee istashali...

(ma ap k idea sa bilkul mutafiq hon.infact yehee idea meray zehan ma bhi tha par sawal karnay ka maqsad sirf ye hai k jo bhi drawbacks hon ap k proposal ma un par bhi behas ho jaey ta k hamarey zehno ma jo ap na idea diya hai us k baray ma ziada sa ziada clarity a sakey.isi waja sa ma jan jan kar bhi tanqeed kar raha hon ta k is idea ko mazeed refine kiya ja sakey..hope you dont mind.hehe)
maine isi liye likha tha ke middle class legal taqat use karti hai aur Feudals brute force use karte hain. agar society main upper aur lower class ke darmian middle class bhi hogi to is waqt jo brute force kaa use aur laa qanuniat itni ziada hai kam az kam yeh to itni nahin hogi . aur middle class ke beech main aane se is waqt jo society main itni polarity hai (aik Feudal sab ko qabu kiye hue hai ) kam az kam yeh to nahin hoga, baqi problems to har society main hote hain . buhut saare problems kaa hal hamain islam aur iman se bhi mil jaaye gaa jo ke hamain maghrib se bhi behtar muashra bana sakta hai . (I dont mind at all, I am trying to learn my self )

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yahan par wohee purana masla khara ho jaey ga jo waderay, jageerdar aur istashalee tabqa jo pehlay moonchey aur darhee rakhtey they aur apney interests k liye assemblion ma directly ya indirectly pohanch gaey they.ab wohee tabqa pent coat pehan kar aur moonchey dari katwa kar corporation bana la ga aur hum parhey likhay masoom phir reh jain gey aur sath hee sath corporations kee monopoly ya oligopoly qaim ho jaey gee aur jo faida is waqt hum free market forces sa utha rahey hain qeematon k taiyun k mamley ma us sa bhi hath dhoo bethain gey aur sath hee sath chohtey kashtkar bhi baree corporations k hathoon blackmail hon gey..
jahan tak sawal hai public companies ka to us silsalay ma adam smith k corporations k barey ma hadshaat PAK jesi country ma 100 feesad durust sabit hon gey kiu k as we know waderay etc to hain hee istashali...

(ma ap k idea sa bilkul mutafiq hon.infact yehee idea meray zehan ma bhi tha par sawal karnay ka maqsad sirf ye hai k jo bhi drawbacks hon ap k proposal ma un par bhi behas ho jaey ta k hamarey zehno ma jo ap na idea diya hai us k baray ma ziada sa ziada clarity a sakey.isi waja sa ma jan jan kar bhi tanqeed kar raha hon ta k is idea ko mazeed refine kiya ja sakey..hope you dont mind.hehe)
Pakistan main upper class ko siasat, maeeshat aur society pe direct control haasil hai aur middle class ne apne aap ko band kia hua hai. Upper class (sarmaya daar, jaagirdar, owner) hamesha opportunist, shaatir aur istehsaali hote hain, woh sirif jor tor aur qabza karna aur taqat hasil karna jaante hain aur un ke dimagh main koi insaniat kuch nahin hota aur Lower class (workers) bher bakriun jaisee hoti hai laikin yeh middle class hoti hai jo ke bher bakriun aur charwahe ko insanun kee qom banati hai . middle class ke pass sarmaya yaa taqat nahin hoti magar education, aqal aur shaoor hota hai jis se woh lower class ko upper class kee bher bakri banne se rokti hai aur us ko properly manage karti hai aur logun main shaoor aur insaniat ko barqarar rakhti hai aur un ko dunya main hone waali tabdilion aur nazriat se bhi aagah rakhti hai. middle class hee qom kee direction tay karti hai magar is ke liye zaruri hai middle class kaa influence society main har jaga mojud hona. hamari middle class taqatwar aur talented zarur hai magar us ne apne aap ko government, corporations, banks, media, multinationals, expats, NGOs aur rone dhone (is waqt jo bhi halaat mulk ke hain in se sab se ziada mutasir middle class ho rahi hai, lower class ke log apna kaam chala lete hain un kaa koi nahin lena dena baqi cheezon se aur upper class to khair waise bhi koi nahin fikar, ziada ho gaya to bahar bhaag jaayen ge) kee had tak mehdud kar liya hai aur maghribi tarz zindagi apna ke baqi society se khud ko alag kar dia hai aur baqi society ko laissez-faire terms pe chor dia aur kabhi aage barh ke puri society kee management sambhalne aur upper aur lower class ke darmian aane kee serious koshish hee nahin kee jis se logun kee buhut bari majority upper class Feudal kee bher bakriyan ban gayi hain aur mulk un kee jaagir ban gaya hai. yeh Feudal tabqa kabhi bhi nahin chahe gaa ke is mulk main industries qaim hon yaa aise halat hon jin main mulki maeeshat behtar tor pe manage ho sake kiyunke is se in kee taqat ko khatra ho jaata hai. hamari middle class bhi jab apne is government aur corporations ke mehdud daaire se bahar nikalti hai to Feudal kee tarah sochne lagti hai aur society ko hakarat ki nazar se dekhti hai laikin jab offices main bethte hain to mulki halat pe rote rehte hain . ab zarurat is baat kee hai ke taalim yaafta tabqa apne andar hosla paida kare har mean of production aur business chahe woh agriculture ho, transport ho, services sector ho yaa chahe zindagi kaa koi bhi shoba ho, us main daakhil ho jaaye aur upper class (sarmaya daar) ke role ko sarmaya lagane aur overlooking karne (Board of Directors ) kee had tak mehdud kare taake woh apni makkaari directly workers ke zehen main na bhare . Private aur small businesses ko ziada se ziada discourage karke logun ko bari corporations main mulazimat mile aur merit pe promotions hon taake sab kaam karna seekhen aur taalim aur hunar se aage barhnen, chori daake yaa udhar leke paisa jaidad bana ke nahin. Economic law aur rights management ko enforce karne ke liye judiciary kee aik branch banai jaaye (jaise sharai law ke liye hai). isi tarah se hee siasat aur samaj se in istehsal karne waalun kee giraft waqt guzarne ke saath kam hogi aur logun main kuch shaur aaye gaa . India ke political system kee continuity hee is liye rahi ke wahan pe aise istehsaali tabqe kee puri society, economy aur politics pe grip nahin thi aur wahan kee mazboot middle class kaa society aur politics pe influence tha aur ab din ba din barhta jaa raha hai, jab ke hamari middle class ne apne aap ko mehdud kar ke siasat aur mulk ko chand jaahil logun kee milkiat bana ke rakh dia jo ke kuch samajhte hee nahin aur har baat pe maara maari shru karwa dete hain . jab apne haan hee itne saare resources jahilon ke qabze main pare hain to pehle in ko chalana aur apni manpower train karna ziada behtar hai yaa FDI kee bheek kaa intezar behtar hai .


Baqi rahi corporations kee monopoly, us ko manage karna government ke liye nisbatan ziada aasan rahe gaa bajaye in bhenson ke aage been bajane ke . Jaise jaise Feudal grip politics aur society se kamzor hoti jaaye gee waise hee government kaa aik naya welfare roop bhi logun ko nazar aane lage gaa aur aik behtar society wajood main aane lage gee .
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Last edited by Umer; Thursday, March 01, 2012 at 04:08 AM. Reason: chain posts
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